#1: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. [-SOLVED-] Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:37 am ---- Model is 2007 1.4i at 50000Km.
When it's cold it fumbles at start-up (like the revs drop slightly then pick-up) or the revs will drop
so much that it reaches zero and will not start.
Another go is then required and it will start, albeit with some hesitation (revs drop).
Pedal is not pressed and have a look my previous thread here regarding this: www.206info.co.uk/Foru...art=0.html
Before people start yelling ICV, it has a fully electric intake and accelerator pedal and therefore no ICV to my knowledge.
Checked with a decent diagnostics tool and engine temp sensor seems to be fine, agreeing with the Air-intake temp sensor when all is cold.
Sparks, Air filter, oil, everything servicable is new and mint.
Any help would be very much appreciated because it seems to be slowly getting worse
(weather colder? Don't know, it was doing it in the summer with 35 C)
Cheers.
Update: For solution go to page 3. Last edited by V9977 on Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:11 am; edited 2 times in total
#2: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:45 am ---- Might seem a bit obvious but you tested the battery and stater motor?
#3: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:46 am ----
Lee wrote:
Might seem a bit obvious but you tested the battery and stater motor?
They are fine. (New VARTA Blue and alternator is fine.)
Earth straps OK too.
#4: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Seabook, Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:03 am ---- Is it only happen when cold or first start in the day?
#5: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Daeva, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:12 am ---- Hello,
please give us a hand with this, as it's an issue.
Any help will be appreciated.
#6: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:18 am ----
Seabook wrote:
Is it only happen when cold or first start in the day?
When the engine hasn't run for a good amount of time.
Could be doing it in the afternoon even though was running in the morning.
So when cold I think.
#7: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Seabook, Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:20 am ----
V9977 wrote:
Seabook wrote:
Is it only happen when cold or first start in the day?
When the engine hasn't run for a good amount of time.
Could be doing it in the afternoon even though was running in the morning.
So when cold I think.
by any chances there is air in the fuel line so that it doesn't start/ idle properly?
#8: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:23 am ----
Seabook wrote:
V9977 wrote:
Seabook wrote:
Is it only happen when cold or first start in the day?
When the engine hasn't run for a good amount of time.
Could be doing it in the afternoon even though was running in the morning.
So when cold I think.
by any chances there is air in the fuel line so that it doesn't start/ idle properly?
Idles fine once running, including warm-up period (1000 rpm) etc.
It's like a mixture issue OR butterfly not opening enough?
#9: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:33 am ---- Fuel pressure?
Tried turning to ignition, waiting 5 seconds and then cranking?
#10: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Seabook, Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:36 am ---- did it misfire at all?
#11: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:37 am ----
Lee wrote:
Fuel pressure?
Tried turning to ignition, waiting 5 seconds and then cranking?
Hmm. Not tried.
Any pointers to look at with the diagnostics tool in 'Live data' mode?
#12: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:37 am ----
Seabook wrote:
did it misfire at all?
Nope. No codes either.
Why?
#13: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Seabook, Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:44 am ----
V9977 wrote:
Seabook wrote:
did it misfire at all?
Nope. No codes either.
Why?
i have a feeling that the engine is running lean (not enough fuel); and it will be more problematic during cold started.
hot engine are less affected but it might misfire depends on how lean is the mixture.
and in fact, it didn't cut out once the engine is running after a while i would have though there is nothing wrong with the throttle body. Last edited by Seabook on Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total
#14: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: macj, Location: EssexPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:44 am ---- The fact that it is fine when warm suggests it is a fuelling issue, My thoughts are that it is not adding the extra choke fuel on initial start up. When you say the ETS is ok do you mean you have replaced it or just that there are no fault codes?
I would clean out your throttle body, checking for corrosion or deposits. If the answer to the above question is "no codes" then get a new ETS. I would imagine this is not hard to start from hot?
#15: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:47 am ---- Fuel pressure 3.5bar + or - 0.5bar
PSA Service Bulletin
#16: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Seabook, Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:49 am ----
Lee wrote:
Fuel pressure 3.5bar + or - 0.5bar
PSA Service Bulletin
where did you find all these PSA Service Bulletin
#17: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:51 am ---- My servicebox account
#18: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:54 am ----
macj wrote:
The fact that it is fine when warm suggests it is a fuelling issue, My thoughts are that it is not adding the extra choke fuel on initial start up. When you say the ETS is ok do you mean you have replaced it or just that there are no fault codes?
I would clean out your throttle body, checking for corrosion or deposits. If the answer to the above question is "no codes" then get a new ETS. I would imagine this is not hard to start from hot?
I have monitored the ETS carefully with diag tool and I'm pretty sure it's OK. That is the first thing I thought too (see first post).
From hot or even after a succesfull start running for a few seconds, it then fires-up straight-away perfectly every time.
Throttle body looks in mint condition, no corrosion and butterfly seems to be opperating smoothly when pushed with finger (2007 car).
It's a puzzle.
Could it be the actuator of the TB is problematic..
#19: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:59 am ---- 'Will check Lee, thanks.
I don't think it's an earth issue tbh though. I'll see about the pressure and double check anyway.
Could the previous owner have mapped it and could this be causing this?
#20: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: macj, Location: EssexPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:18 am ---- I will pop over and have a look.... Got a mate who lives in Sitia on Crete
#21: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:24 am ----
macj wrote:
I will pop over and have a look.... Got a mate who lives in Sitia on Crete
You're welcome to anytime.
Lee said he would but hasn't got round to it.
Maybe he is afraid of the current situation over here. Anyway, different topic for that in a few months time..
#22: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:14 am ---- Update:
Just checked with live data, I only seem to have "FUELSYS:" which says OL with engine off and CL when engine
is running. No pressure reading parameter anywhere.
But leaving the key in the ON position for a while before starting, made no difference whatsoever. Hessitant again.
I should point out that the behaviour of the slight jolt (see link in first post) is still there after all these months. Could this be connected I wonder?
Question: Am I right in thinking the Oxygen sensor (1st, pre-cat) is ignored at start-up until the ellement is warm?
Otherwise, I have here an OK sensor from when I replaced mine a while back, worth giving that a try?
#23: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Coolspot, Location: East SussexPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:35 am ---- My car does this when cold and runs fine after clearing out the cold air through the system.
I have found that she does not like cold air being rammed up her grills.
We had a oxygen sensor replaced a while ago i can't remember if it was like this then but its always been their as far ass i'm aware but the wife did have major issues with it a few winters ago when it was really cold and wouldn't start for quite a while.
Good luck
#24: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:47 am ---- Have you checked the earth wires?
#25: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:59 am ----
Lee wrote:
Have you checked the earth wires?
The ones coming-off the battery onto the chassis, gearbox etc are tight and fine for sure.
Engine temp sensor is also fine by the readings from the diag tool.
Is the O2 sensor ignored at startup?
What is 'FUELSYS:' parameter OL and CL anyone know?
P.S. Lee I think you just broke the site.
#26: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:05 pm ---- CL = closed loop
OL - open loop.
No the one from the ECU to earth
#27: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:07 pm ----
Lee wrote:
CL = closed loop
OL - open loop.
No the one from the ECU to earth
What there is a strap there? Apart from the 3 connectors?
Will check ASAP.
#28: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:18 pm ---- There are about 5 earthing points under the bonnet. Near both front lights, strut (battery side), gearbox, crossmember, maybe a few more.
Take a look at the connector on the ECU and see where the earthing point is.
I'll try and find it
#29: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:28 pm ---- The ECU earthing points of MC01 and MC11
Clean the contacts
#30: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Daeva, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:40 pm ---- Thank you so much for all your thoughts, guys. Really appreciated.
We'll check tomorrow when the sun is out!
#31: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:22 am ---- Another update:
Pump is whiring in second click key position.
Earths appear intact.
Have now again taken the airfilter hose off and trying to watch the butterfly behaviour.
Appears to be completely shut at start-up, even though the throttle actuator is whiring and holds lock to the butterfly.
When idling, it still looks prety closed to me, until pressing the accelerator pedal where it seems to opperate fine.
Engine runs fine, plenty of power etc. appart from slight jolt of power sometimes when pressing the pedal.
Eh?
#32: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:25 am ---- Checked the throttle position sensor?
#33: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:29 am ----
Lee wrote:
Checked the throttle position sensor?
I think that is inside the actuator unit, not like an external pot as usual.
What do you suggest to check?
#34: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:35 am ---- Tell me your VIN number and I'll check to see if there are anythings flagged up on servicebox
#35: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:06 am ---- Check your email
#36: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:27 am ----
Lee wrote:
Check your email
Cheers matey.
I'll have to go through all that.
#37: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:01 am ---- - SOLVED -
ECU update to the latest version needed due to bad software version from a previous update on 14/9/2007.
For reference this is before:
(note sometimes it would not fire-up at all when completely cold and needed 2-3 goes). s875.photobucket.com/a...V01452.mp4
This is now confirmed and the overall performance of the engine is much improved.
The 'jolts' when pressing accelerator if cold are completely gone. Smoother throughout the rev range.
No loss of power compared to before.
Much quieter engine (thought it had stalled on idle a couple of times).
Ever so slightly lower engine temp.
Thank you Lee for coming up with this:
The chap on PP2000 at Peugeot dealership also gave me this:
Which I translated btw.
Cost 50 EUR all in.
Mine is up next I think.
Cheers everyone.
#38: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. [-SOLVED-] Author: Daeva, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:29 am ---- It's been great help to hear from all of you!
The car runs smoothly and starts every time.
All your input is appreciated!
#39: Re: Hesitant to Start when cold BUT.. [-SOLVED-] Author: Lee, Location: EnglandPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:29 am ----
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