#1: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:23 pm ---- Hello everyone, I'll start at the beginning so everyone understands my problem.
Before I got my Peugeot 206 it was sitting for about 2 years, I got it on the road and I hated the handling, It felt like I was driving a boat going around corners, I can feel myself slide of my seat, now this may seem I'm driving too fast but infact I'm not. To be honest most of the times I'm to scared to even go to 60mph even on a straight.
What I have done so far is that I've changed the back shocks and the front shocks, from standard Peugeot Oil to Gas KYB Excel-G shocks, and my car feels the same, no change in the feeling, still feels like a boat, the only difference so far is my front Ride height has gone up 1.5inchs, I did use the old Springs, was this a mistake? Currently, my rear height from Tyre to arch is 2.5Inch, and front driver side 4inch and Passenger side 4.25inch - not really sure why this is higher. My car does looks stupid at front, like I'm driving a monster truck, but this doesn't really bother me, but do you think changing my springs will help my problem? lowering it to about 2.5inch the same as the rear?
Peugeot Garage told me that springs does nothing but hold the car up, it's the shocks that needs changing but I've already changed these and it feels completely the same.
I'm sorry for this massive post but I hope someone can help me and point me to the right direction.
Thanks for reading.
#2: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:36 pm ---- Have you got correct tyre pressures 31psi I believe?
What size wheels and tyres?
Any other worn suspension components?
The front anti-roll bar present and connected?
No excess war in drop links?
Increasing the ride height will not help but if it isn't worse than before something else isn't right.
Finally I have assumed that you are sliding off your seat due to excess body roll in the corners - is that what you are describing?
#3: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: gaffa786, Location: 2 Places at oncePosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:47 pm ---- anti roll bar linkages might have play in them?
#4: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:50 pm ---- Hello, I have changed both arms, track ends, Links, strut bearings and shocks, and still have same issue, My alloys are the Nimrod 16inch, tyres are 195/45/16. tyre Psi is 31.5 I believe. And yes sorry I do mean body roll, wasn't sure how to describe the problem.
Thanks
#5: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: gaffa786, Location: 2 Places at oncePosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:53 pm ---- does it roll more when turning a certain direction by anychance or is it same for left and right?
#6: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:55 pm ---- The only thing I can now suggest is to get another 206 driver to drive it ans see what they think. It sounds like you have changed all the components that would cause severe body roll.
Weak springs won't help but to have fitted new shocks and drop links and it still be poor is odd.
Damaged ARB (cracked?), really weak springs or you have an elephant strapped to the bonnet and aren't telling us.
#7: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:01 pm ---- Did you fit the right struts?
You haven't said what model of 206 you have. Some models sit lower at the front than others.
Measure the ride height from the centre of the hub to the bottom of the arch, and ask someone with the same model to measure theirs, or better still ask someone with access to Autodata for the correct ride height. This will tell you if your settings are out and may help to highlight the problem.
#8: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:06 pm ---- It is horrible when turning left, and I hate it, I don't think it's as bad when turning right, but maybe because I don't slide as I'm touching the driver door. but turning left at corners is horrible.
and kandlebarrett I cant stop laughing haha, no there is no elephant on the bonnet, and just to clear up something I only weigh 12 stone so I don't think this should effect anything.
I don't know if this is related but If I go over a bumpy track my steering wheels goes crazy... even when I drive on the road and go over the smallest bump I can feel feedback coming back to the steering wheel like it wants to turn. but this could be another problem. I've spent so much money to try and fix this issue and I'm going no where.
#9: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:08 pm ---- I have a 206 Xsi 1.6 16v, I went through KYB website and got the part numbers which matched my car.
I will measure from center cap to Arch tomorrow morning.
#10: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: gaffa786, Location: 2 Places at oncePosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:24 pm ----
Achillez wrote:
It is horrible when turning left, and I hate it, I don't think it's as bad when turning right, but maybe because I don't slide as I'm touching the driver door. but turning left at corners is horrible.
and kandlebarrett I cant stop laughing haha, no there is no elephant on the bonnet, and just to clear up something I only weigh 12 stone so I don't think this should effect anything.
I don't know if this is related but If I go over a bumpy track my steering wheels goes crazy... even when I drive on the road and go over the smallest bump I can feel feedback coming back to the steering wheel like it wants to turn. but this could be another problem. I've spent so much money to try and fix this issue and I'm going no where.
I used to have this problem with my car the extra feedback turned out the wishbone was gone but then again it stil does do it abit now
#11: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: frenchfrog40, Location: MaidstonePosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:30 am ---- Also the higher the car is, the more body roll your going to get as it raises the centre of gravity. The only other thing you could do it get shorter springs so it sits a bit lower than standard (doesnt have to be a lot) and with uprated shocks this should make cornering feel a bit better.
#12: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:01 am ---- are front shocks made in left and right? Or are both the same? Just in case left was installed on the right and right installed on the left. I'm going to purchase springs today I was hoping someone can tell me the best springs to buy that will happily fit in kyb shocks, I wouldn't mind dropping the front ride height about 2 inches aswell leaving 2 inch cap from tyre to arch.
Cheers
#13: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: lmilligan, Location: HertfordshirePosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:25 am ---- Sounds as though the shocks aren't fitted properly. Bit of a strange combo though, uprated shocks and standard springs, normally the other way round! Uprated springs are normally 10 - 15 % stiffer, I can definitely feel the difference in mine
The best springs are probably eibach and weitec from what ive heard, hope this helps.
#14: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:48 am ---- What about getting a strut brace? This will be cheaper for my pocket? Will this help?
I've been looking for eibach springs and they sell front and back together? Will the rear fit? Because I thought I had torsion bar.
#15: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: gaffa786, Location: 2 Places at oncePosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:14 am ---- Yes the rear is a torsion bar and springs at the front
#16: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:18 am ---- This came up recently on another topic. Are the tyres the same 2 years old? I would check them out, as well as balancing and tracking as you've changed all the components of the suspension.
#17: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:16 am ---- 2 brand new tyres, balancing, not sure about tracking tho
#18: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:27 am ---- Definetly get it tracked then.
#19: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:10 am ---- Tracking is a way forward but no point getting tracking if there are damaged or incorrcetly fitted components.
If you take it to a reputable 4 wheel alignment centre describe what you have done and that you suspect alignment then they will check all the bushes and other components before doing the work. In fact a good centre will check all components first as that is correct procedure.
The steering going crazy over bumps really points to a defective or incorrectly fitted component.
There is a small chance that the body roll isn't actually body roll but the car being steered by the rear wheels. The rear stub axle bearings on these cars can fail and have the rear wheels pointing at VERY strange angles and cause some very strange sensations. A 4 wheel alignment will check the rear for camber and toe - don't expect it to meet manufacturers specs as very few do (a lot even leave the factory slightly outsdide tolerance) but the centre will tell you if the wear or mis-alignment is excessive.
NOTE: rear alignment can only be corrected by new rear stub axle bearings or new axle.
If you don't fancy the 4 wheel alignment route it may be time to find a reputable independant garage and pay them the £30 for them to have a really good look at it. This does not commit you to letting them repair it.
Some garages, if you talk nicely to them, will let you accompany the fitter under the car. Last edited by kandlbarrett on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total
#20: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Timon2210, Location: PalestinePosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:13 am ---- since your car been standing for 2 years before your bring it back to road,i will recommend that you change the tires,because the tires got dry cuz car is not moving,and the grip of the tires will be bad.
#21: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:20 am ---- Timon2210: his post above says 2 new tyres fitted.
Not knocking your post as, despite what I have suggested you do have a point and it could still be the rear trying to swing round due to poor rear tyres.
#22: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:57 pm ---- I'd like to thank everyone for the help especially Kandlbarrett, My friend is going to replace my front springs, change rear tyres ( kumho any good? ) and track my car, will only be able to check front as he cant do all 4, but this should be a good start. I have a few other questions, I really dont want to start a new topic so I'm hoping someone here may help me.
I need to order springs before Saturday when he will be working on my car, someone posted that eibach and weitec were good springs, I spoke to demontweek and they told me that Eibach Sportline Lowering Springs Kit front 45mm wont work on my current shocks which are KYB Excel-G, can someone help me and direct me to some springs that will work with my shocks, I dont want super cheap springs thats the only thing.
Also
whats the difference between non sport arches and sport arches? I've tryed searching cant seem to find nothing, can someone show me images of the size difference?
Thanks
#23: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:55 am ---- If you are having tracking done please get 4 wheel alignment. While the rear isn't adjustable on your car the direction the rear wheels point will be measured and compensated for on the front settings.
You can do this with good 2 wheel alignment equipment but very few bother and a lot of people don't even know the technique.
Also, a 4 wheel alignment won't cost any more than just tracking as good centres only charge for what they actually adjust. So a 4 wheel check that includes knowing how bad your rear alignment is and takes that into account will still only cost between £35 and £40. If you do get 4 wheel alignment ask for a the print out as that should make the operator get the front toe spot on rather than just near enough.
NOTE: As previous post do not get alignment done (unless it is free) until you are certain there aren't any more suspension components to change. Changing any component will put it out and you will need it done again. A good alignment will pay for itself in reduced tyre wear / longer tyre life.
EDIT: If it is a GTi180 I would prefer big brand tyres. Anything less and Kumho will suffice though I wouldn't put them on my daughters car.
EDIT2: With all the problems you are having I would stick with standard springs.
Also when shocks are off; if your mate is knowleageable see what he thinks of their resistance to movement - we haven't explored the possibility that the new shocks are defective. If you have the old ones to compare against the new ones should be noticeably firmer.
While the car is jacked up just get him to check that the anti roll bar isn't cracked or even broken. I doubt it but worth a check.
EDIT3: Worth checking the rear ride height against spec and the torsion bars. Someone hasn't set the torsion bars really low or at different ride heights have they? That would also give weird handling. Last edited by kandlbarrett on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
#24: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:39 pm ---- Hello, I don't think torsion bar has been lowered, rear looks fine, its got about 2.5inch cap from tyre to wheel arch.
My suspension is being ripped out tomorrow and its going to be compared to the old shocks, of everything does look fine, I will want springs with me, I don't want a 4 inch cap between my tyres and arch, I've been looking at springs that will drop my car 1.5 inch, this will take my ride height back to normal, I've also ordered arb bushes for both sides, just in case one is damaged.
Thanks
#25: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:42 pm ---- Good luck. Keep us updated with progress.
#26: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:14 pm ---- I've just found out that my front shocks are just OEM replacements, only difference that's meant to be its gas instead of oil, I'll be buying springs tomorrow morning, are spax any good? I can get 40mm springs for 80pd or 30mm springs eibach for 110pound, there are a few choice but I've not heard of many brands, my only concern is do these lowering springs fit OEM front shocks, I was told yesterday I'd have to get smaller dampers, but that's going to cost me again. All i'd like to know should most or all springs fit front oem shocks.
Cheers will keep you updated tomorrow.
#27: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:11 pm ---- I am not a lowering expert but I would expect that shorter springs will fit without problem.
In posting this I have assumed that the critical point is the point at which the car comes to the bottom of its suspension travel. Now if these are standard dampers (I realised they were when you posted what you had bought) the spring pan on the damper should be at exactly the same height as the ones you took off.
The new shorter springs will be stiffer (I assume) so will take a lot more weight or force to compress them to the same point at which the old springs would bottom out the suspension.
Now, as above I am not a lowering expert and may have missed something obvious.
The other area that you now need to consider is that the lowering springs are stiffer than standard. The dampers you have are rated for standard springs. The task of the damper is to stop the spring continuing to bounce up and down after hitting a bump; in other words damp the spring oscillation or bouncing action. Your standard dampers with weaker spring may struggle to do this and certainly won't be a perfect match.
Worse than you have now - I suspect not. An ideal match - no.
Finally I am an old git and get a bit anal and pedantic about springs and dampers.
Most people refer to a damper as a shock absorber and that is not correct. The shock absorber is in fact the spring. It is the spring that absorbs the shock of hitting a bump.
The damper does exactly that, dampen the oscillation of the spring.
Calling a damper a shock absorber is technically very incorrect. Though I sometimes do it myself!
#28: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:26 pm ---- Just an update, suspension was taken off and reinstalled, we compared the new shocks to old, the old shocks were harder to pull the insert out and push back in. I measured the top of the shock to the bottom were the tray is where it holds the spring and the spring tray was 0.2inch further down with my new shocks. Ride height is still the same, tracking came up spot on, I know you told me to do 4 wheel alignment but this was all he could do, the arb bushing were good. I didn't manage to get the springs I wanted so what I'm going to do is purchase eibach pro line which drops the front by 45mm I believe. So I'll give this a go next I think. I know many of you are probably thinking why doesn't this idiot just replace the whole suspension, reason being I don't have the cash, I don't really wanna wait next month as I hate driving this car, maybe in the future I'll buy new shocks to match my eibach springs.
What i'll do tomorrow aswell is take a picture of the front of my car so you guys can have a look, could just be me being fussy.
#29: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:02 pm ---- First sentence above? You old shocks being stiffer than your new ones is NOT correct. Your new shocks should be stiffer than your old ones. You old ones ought to be tired by now and quite easy to move. Your new ones should be quite stiff in comparison to the old ones.
I would question, "fitness for purpose" and try to take the existing ones back and get upgraded shocks.
Gas dampers aren't quite what you may think. Gas dampers still use oil to create resistance to movement but they also have a gas charge at anything between 35 and 150psi depending on design. That gas prevents the oil aerating (getting loads of tiny air bubbles in the oil) when they are worked hard so the resistance to movement remains controlled even when the shocks are worked hard.
I would be very inclined to return them. As above if they are already easier to move than the old shocks that will only get worse and that is not what you want.
Extract from Monroe web site:-
Gas-charged shock absorbers solve many of today's vehicle ride control problems by adding a low pressure charge of nitrogen gas to the damper. The gas serves several important functions; however, the primary function of gas charging is to minimize aeration of the hydraulic fluid. The pressure of the nitrogen gas compresses air bubbles in the hydraulic fluid which reduces the adverse effects of oil foaming. Foam affects performance because it can be compressed - fluid can not. With aeration reduced, the shock is able to react faster and more predictably, allowing for quicker response time and helping to keep the tires firmly in contact with the road surface.
#30: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:26 pm ---- With lower (stiffer?) springs and new dampers that are even softer than tired original dampers you are heading for quite a mis-match and the dampers will struggle to control spring re-bound and re-compression. Depending on just how stiff (soft) those new dampers are you might be about to make a pogo stick of your front suspension.
You may not get the body roll you previously had but you could end up continuing to bounce after hitting a bump. That can be particularly dangerous if that bump is mid-bend. My company car (Ford Focus) currently has really tired dampers and that is really nasty if I hit a bump or dip in the road mid bend when driving quickly.
#31: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:15 am ---- What you explained there I get that now, and I agree with you its not nice at all, I thought this was the springs fault for being nasty on bumps. I don't think seller will accept these dampers back, that's my only problem, its been over a month now. it felt like the old shocks were twice as hard to push than my new shocks, which pretty much just slid in. Maybe I should just email kyb directly
#32: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:04 am ---- The theory:-
Once a spring starts to bounce it will do so for quite a while.
The damper should control the spring in such a way that it compresses when you hit a bump, rebound then settles.
Your springs and dampers should be tuned to each other and the weight of the vehicle.
The body roll you describe should be controlled by the spring and anit-roll bar with a small amount of control also added by the damper.
If your springs are excessively stiff they will bounce more than they should because the damper won't be able to control them.
If your springs are soft the shock absorbing is done by the damper. One of the problems here is that over repeated bumps the car can bottom because the spring is so weak it doesn't push back hard enough to overcome the resistance of the damper and raise the car back up before you hot the next bump.
There are lots of other effects but these are the principle ones.
Getting a refund:-
With regards the new dampers they are either defective from new or have failed early. Either way you did not buy them from KYB but from a supplier. Under the, "sale of goods act" your complaint is with the supplier. Things get a little complicated because the retailer will probably fall back on the KYB manufacturers warrant. Things get a little grey here because they are (probably) only bound to give a replacement but my knowledge gets sketchy here.
If they are as easy to compress and pull out as you describe they are obviously defective. When you take them back add that you have lost faith in the manufacturer and would like an alternative or refund to enable you to buy an alternative but you do not want KYB again
Any good supplier will treat this as a reasonable request and do as you have asked.
What ever you decide - good luck.
#33: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:41 pm ---- well I think we know what the problem is now, I do remember the garge mentioning to me that these were quite soft / easy to pull/push when they first installed them, but this ment nothing to me. what I will do probably is wait and buy some good dampers/springs. I would really like to thank you Kandlebarrett for helping me getting to the bottom of this. I'll be ordering new dampers and springs next week, so I will update to let you know how my car is. I'll most probably go for bilstein dampers and eibach springs. I've also noticed my rear wheels rub the inside of the arch now on some corners, so I believe that also means the rear dampers were also very soft, it never use to do that with my old dampers, but i'll replace the rear another time.
#34: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:29 am ---- Achillez:- Good luck with the front.
Ref the rear; the dampers don't control ride height the torsion bars do. Reasons for rear wheels hitting the wheel arches are probably:-
1) rear stub axles bearings worn.
2) very badly adjusted wheel bearings.
3) Car excessively lowered (not uncommon.)
To check the stub axles and wheel bearings you need to jack the car up so the rear wheels are off the ground and with hands at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock push / pull and twist the wheel then do the same at 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock. There should not be any play (well a very tiny bit is permissible but only a tiny bit.) Play will either be worn stub axle bearings or incorrectly adjusted wheel bearings. If you look closely you should be able to see where the movenment is.
If it is not bearings worn or badly adjusted then it is torsion bars that have been set incorrectly. I am not sure what the rear ride height should be but can have a look for you tonight or maybe another knowledgeable user will advise before then.
It could be weak torsion bars but I am not aware of any cars that have suffered that though I readily admit I am not an expert on rear suspension for these cars. I know how it works, and have had a good look under one but have never had it apart.
#35: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:15 pm ---- Hello, I didn't want to make a new topic so I thought I'd resurrect this topic.
Changed front shocks and replaced standard springs with eibach, I've got to say its so much better, I'd still would of liked it a bit more stiff for the corners but this doesn't bother me much, I'm quite happy with the car.
Anyway the main reason I did resurrect this topic was because I have a question, when the front shocks was done I took it for a spin and noticed a lot of clunks when turning the steering wheel, took it back to the garage, jacked the car up to find strut bearing wasn't slot in its correct position, so the mechanic put it back into its correct position, thankfully he didn't have to remove the whole suspension to do this. Anyway I took it back home, could still hear little light clunks.
I did take it back the next morning and the mechanic did tell me it would go after a week, well its been 2 weeks and its still there, I don't want to take it back because I don't want to p**s the mechanic off, I'd also like to confirm it doesn't effect the cars handling, not that I've noticed yet anyway but its horrible to hear these clunks all the time, I have had a look myself and everything looks all good. Also the Bearings were brand new.
Any suggestions anyone? I don't mind driving the car like this but if this can damage my sudspension I'd like it fixed
Sorry for the long post
Thanks
#36: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:00 am ---- It's either the drop links or bottom arms, you could rule top bearings out if there new.
#37: Re: Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please Author: Achillez, Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:55 am ---- I'll double check them, but both arms and drop links were changed about 3-4 months ago.
We are not responsible for comments posted by our users, as they are the property of the poster
Interactive software released under GNU GPL,
Code Credits,
Privacy Policy
Membership:
Latest: 
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 17132
Online Now [353]:
Visitors: 352
Members: 0
Staff Online Now:
Page Views:
General
