#1: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: jam1e, Location: WorcestershirePosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:47 am ---- Hi folks,
I've had a search on the forum, but can't find any advice on this.
The cars a 2003 206 1.4 HDI.
I've just overhauled the rear drum brakes. This included, new shoes, fitting kit, and a new cylinder on the offside. All 4 brakes have been bled to get new fluid in the system.
Despite this, the handbrake is not gripping on the nearside drum. I cycled the handbrake at least 20 times but it's not made a lot of difference.
There was a fair bit of slack in the cable, so I removed the plastic cover over the hand brake lever and wound the adjustment nut in on the threaded rod.
The offside now works amazingly well, but not the nearside. The nearside works, but nowhere near as well. However it's hard to gauge how well.
Also, I couldn't get the handbrake cables to tighten up evenly. The small plate behind the handbrake adjustment nut, that holds the ends of the cables is at a diagonal angle. If I tighten the handbrake adjusting nut any tighter, the offside brake will start binding.
I'm thinking either a stretched cable, or a worn self adjuster in the drum? I'll be going out shortly, to see if there is a removable bung on the rear of the brake "Plate"? so I can get a screw driver in there and maybe tighten up the self adjuster.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks folks.
Jamie
#2: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: Project2062014, Location: CornwallPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:45 am ---- change it to hydraulic or adapt the handbrake cable holder to work . It pulls off centre and pulls one side more than the other.
Is weak bad design .
#3: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:43 am ---- Don't remember there being a "bung" in the backplate so that's not an option. Is the n/s cable seized or jamming in the outer cable?
Has to pull square on both or you get the symptoms you are seeing. Needs freeing off.
#4: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: jam1e, Location: WorcestershirePosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:45 am ----
gazza82 wrote:
Don't remember there being a "bung" in the backplate so that's not an option. Is the n/s cable seized or jamming in the outer cable?
Has to pull square on both or you get the symptoms you are seeing. Needs freeing off.
Thanks for the reply Gaz.
I take it the only way of doing this is to remove the rear drum and brake shoe assembly again. Then get a friend to work the handbrake to see if the cables retracting at the drum end?
Cheers
Jamie
#5: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:33 am ---- Best method is to slacken handbrake cable off, press brake pedal 10 times to me sure there adjusted fully and then retighten hand brake until you only have to pull a few clicks. Shouldn't take more than 10 mins and can is all done from inside car.
Do you know have to slacken the cable off from inside.
#6: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: jam1e, Location: WorcestershirePosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:25 pm ----
Steve206 wrote:
Best method is to slacken handbrake cable off, press brake pedal 10 times to me sure there adjusted fully and then retighten hand brake until you only have to pull a few clicks. Shouldn't take more than 10 mins and can is all done from inside car.
Do you know have to slacken the cable off from inside.
Thanks Steve, I'll give that a try. Yes, have tightened the handbrake inside the car. When having the brake on at 4 notches, the nearside cable gets tight, and has some affect on braking, but it doesn't get as tight as the offside, which will lock the wheel up on 4-5 clicks. There seems to be around an inch of extra cable on the nearside from the view inside the car. Is it possible the cable has stretched on the one side?
Cheers.
Jamie
#7: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:46 pm ---- I would try what I have said first to make sure everything is free and moving and equally balanced. Don't think a cable would stretch that much.
#8: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: jam1e, Location: WorcestershirePosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:31 am ----
Steve206 wrote:
I would try what I have said first to make sure everything is free and moving and equally balanced. Don't think a cable would stretch that much.
I did what you advised Steve, but it made no difference. Where you adjust the handbrake inside the car, the "plate" is still diagonal, and 3 clicks of the handbrake at around 10 mph will lock the offside wheel up. So with that in mind and the fact that the nearside cable has lots of slack and little braking force, which one is likely to be seized? Apologies, I know it's probably a dumb question...
Secondly, if I slam the brakes on, (No ABS) at 20 mph, on a flat part of road, the front of the car swerves/skids off to the right a few feet. Could the 2 issues be linked? I'm presuming not, but I've just changed the front pads and discs. And bled some new fluid through them. And both brake pistons moved freely in and out of the cylinder??
Thanks for the help so far folks.
Jamie
#9: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:23 pm ---- Looks like you might need to change the cables. The braking sounds normal. Check your load spring on rear axle to check its not seized.
#10: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: jam1e, Location: WorcestershirePosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:00 pm ----
Steve206 wrote:
Looks like you might need to change the cables. The braking sounds normal. Check your load spring on rear axle to check its not seized.
Cheers Steve.
I did think that may be the next course of action.
I forgot to add that the load spring was freed up and cleaned as part of the brake service.
Cheers
Jamie
#11: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: Triggerfish, Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:18 pm ----
jam1e wrote:
.....I couldn't get the handbrake cables to tighten up evenly. The small plate behind the handbrake adjustment nut, that holds the ends of the cables is at a diagonal angle. If I tighten the handbrake adjusting nut any tighter, the offside brake will start binding.
I'm thinking either a stretched cable, or a worn self adjuster in the drum? I'll be going out shortly, to see if there is a removable bung on the rear of the brake "Plate"? so I can get a screw driver in there and maybe tighten up the self adjuster.
The PROBLEM is that angled plate against the 2 nuts.....why?
When it works perfectly, that plate should be even and not angled.
The reason is RESISTANCE!.....where?
When you pull the handbrake up, it pulls the 2 wires evenly but this cannot happen because there is resistance on one side of the rear brakes due to shoes against the back plate itself. This is usually a rusted back plate or the shoes are very tight against the back plate.
If it is rusted/not smooth, then the shoes cannot move smoothly so you need to repair the back plate to make it a smooth surface by sanding it down and spray paint it over.
You can also apply grease where the shoes touches against the back plate so to allow smooth operation....note no grease on the surface of the shoes!!
#12: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:48 am ---- Ignore all that. Don't put grease inside the drums. As Long as the brake piston inside the drum is free and working then it won't seize anywhere.
#13: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:26 am ---- Just confirming that the answer is in those cables to save you a lot of head scratching. The equaliser plate is only meant to deal with small differences in cable length so if it's at a noticeable large angle and not at right angles to the cables then you'll have very uneven braking forces. You were there in your thinking with your original post,
The small plate behind the handbrake adjustment nut, that holds the ends of the cables is at a diagonal angle. If I tighten the handbrake adjusting nut any tighter, the offside brake will start binding.
I'm thinking either a stretched cable
the surprise perhaps is just how much the cables stretch over time and they do, that's why they'll almost always need to be replaced in pairs
#14: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:42 am ----
Steve206 wrote:
Ignore all that. Don't put grease inside the drums. As Long as the brake piston inside the drum is free and working then it won't seize anywhere.
Copper grease is fine for inside the drums where the shoes touch the backplate.
OP, try turning the auto adjuster screw with a tiny screwdriver, put drum back on to see if it just binds slightly. If it doesn't, adjust a little more and keep on repeating until it's set right.
If the drum has a lip on the inside, just grind it off slightly with a Dremmel. Makes life easier for getting the drum past the shoes.
If the shoes are having to move different distances, then that can send the bracket on the handbrake of at an angle and also cause the symptoms of the car pulling under braking as one side is grabbing before other.
#15: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: jam1e, Location: WorcestershirePosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:26 pm ---- Thanks for the replies folks, much appreciated.
To answer a few queries, the back-plates are ok. A little deteriorated but not enough to cause problems with movement of the shoes.
What I did discover, was the self-adjuster on the nearside brake isn't working. I've no idea why?? Everything is in good order, and the teeth are fine on the adjuster nut..... In the end, I manually adjusted that side by using a small screw driver to wind out the shoes. Thankfully, I achieved 90% (ish) equal handbrake movement on my second attempt. And full handbrake movement is 3 to 4 clicks. For now I've had enough, and will treat as a manually adjusted handbrake, but it does p**s me off that the self adjuster will not work. I just can't see why it won't work!?? Anyone any ideas??
After working on the handbrake, I took it for a test drive to see if the front of the car still veered to the right when I locked the brakes up at 20-25 mph (No ABS). And YES, the f****** thing did!! Surely that's not normal even for a non abs car!??
Very frustrating....
Really appreciate all the help folks.
Jamie
#16: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:37 pm ---- Ive yet to find a self adjusting drum brake design where the self adjustor works correctly.
#17: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:53 am ---- +1 MrBSI
Also the trouble with manually adjusting is that if you have a lip on your drum (I bet there is) then you can't adjust the shoes as much as needed because the lip will stop you refitting the drum.
The adjusters do work when they are new but don't last past 50k or about 7 years. The answer is stick with manual adjusting or get new drums and self adjusting mechanism and be very sure you know how they go back together before dismmantling. And remember that how they are fitted now may not be factory correct as some ham fisted amatuer may have been in there before you.
Also if your front brakes aren't pulling evenly the rears will really struggle to keep you in a straight line. A small inconsistency on the front and the rears help but very much unevenness and you are in trouble.
I would suggest you go to your friendly garage and get it on the brake tester to check the stopping force of both front and rear on the brake pedal as well as the rear on the handbrake. That will give you a far clearer problem of where the issue lies.
Alternatively find a quiet road and test both footbrake and handbrake but that is far less sophisticated.
Finally to all those who say the cure is centralising the equaliser plate at the handbrake that is often (normally?) wrong and just a symptom of siezed self adjuster no longer working.
#18: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:49 pm ---- On the Toyota Tonero forklift with a Bendix brake drum setup, the auto adjustors for the brake shoes will only work if the truck is being driven backwards when you stamp on the brake pedal.
Ive yet to find one that actually ever works correctly & the same goes for all the other technicians I speak to that work on them
Luckily on these there is a rubber bung in the back plate so you can get at the adjustor easily - if you have the correct tool.
#19: Re: Help needed. Handbrake not gripping despite overhaul?? Author: jam1e, Location: WorcestershirePosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:06 pm ---- Thanks for the reply folks.
I intend to do what KandLBarrett suggested. I'll get the braking force tested at a garage and sort the brakes if needed, before I give it back to my wife to use for work. Better safe than sorry!
Cheers
Jamie
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