#1: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: ElectronZero, Location: North BucksPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:40 pm ---- Hi,
New to 206's but not new to stripping out engines etc. I am currently trying to replace blown head gasket on 1.4l 206 8v (2003). I have striped out the main drive belt and rocker cover and cam covers. Removed all cables and pipes and now need to fit 10mm and 6mm locking pins to stop any cam movement before I remove the cam belt and head. I could move the engine over when I started but now unable to manually move the engine to TDC even though the spark plugs are out.
Any ideas as to what could be stopping the engine (the engine was working fine, apart from head gasket, before I started so no major reason why it 'locks' in one place). I can jiggle the engine a bit but it jut will not rotate past a certain point.
Any ideas would be very welcome.
Best regards,
Zero.
#2: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: Addaz, Location: SuffolkPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:58 pm ---- The timing is incorrect, or the valve clearances are 10 million miles out
Did you pin it via the flywheel and camshaft?
#3: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:29 am ---- Is the car in gear? Silly question but amazing how many people don't check this when trying to turn an engine by hand.
#4: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: ElectronZero, Location: North BucksPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:58 am ---- Macca1411: I did check it was in neutral, but thank you for the hint.
Addaz: I have not been able to pin the two points yet as I am unable to turn the engine to the correct position. The cam belt is still on but not able to move to that final locking position.
Is there a way to remove the cylinder head and reset the timing later?
Best regards,
Zero.
#5: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: Edward, Location: In the garagePosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:56 am ---- Surely if it's all yet to be stripped apart you just need to make sure all pistons are at the same position I. E. Halfway up the bores and then take the head off? Lock the cam and crank when it's reassembled.
#6: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: ElectronZero, Location: North BucksPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:17 pm ---- Edward, I am just being cautious as I do not wish to dismantle and not be able to set up the timing correctly afterwards. Are you aware of a manual timing routine?
Best regards,
Zero.
#7: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macj, Location: EssexPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:24 pm ---- Has there been water in the bore?
Is there maybe a rust ridge stopping the piston coming up the bore.
On a different note.... never turn your engine over using the cams.... always the bottom crank pulley.
#8: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: Edward, Location: In the garagePosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:07 pm ----
ElectronZero wrote:
Edward, I am just being cautious as I do not wish to dismantle and not be able to set up the timing correctly afterwards. Are you aware of a manual timing routine?
.
There won't be anything to stop you putting it back together and timing it properly later.
#9: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: ElectronZero, Location: North BucksPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:35 pm ---- Macj: Not sure if water got in but I could turn the engine when it had spark plugs in but since taking them out I can no longer move the engine around....
Edward: I am unable to find any details of how to set the timing up if the locks are not in position. Can you point me to where I can find details on this (I have the Haynes Manual - but no details there)
Many thanks to you all for taking the time in replying.
Best regards,
Zero
#10: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macj, Location: EssexPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:57 am ---- Whip the head off.... the timing is relatively easy once you know what your looking at inside. If you have any issues in the bores you will have to deal with that first.... setting the timing up is a case of matching a diagram of timing points which we can find.
#11: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: ElectronZero, Location: North BucksPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:00 pm ---- Macj: Head is off - very messy
I am going to get head skimmed as quite pitted and then rebuild from there. Where can I find details of the timing points or do I just move the engine to the two lock points, lock them and rebuild?
#12: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:47 pm ---- Don't turn the crank with the head off as you risk disturbing the cylinder liners
#13: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:18 pm ----
macca1411 wrote:
Don't turn the crank with the head off as you risk disturbing the cylinder liners
Correct, you need special locking tools to lock the liners in position if you wish to turn the crank with the head removed.
#14: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: ElectronZero, Location: North BucksPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:05 am ---- Thanks for the info. I will proceed with caution. I have a day or so of work just to clean out all the contaminated water from the block before rebuilding.
#15: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macj, Location: EssexPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:33 pm ---- You only have to pop a piece of angle iron across the liner tops to stop them from moving but it sounds like a liner moving is the least of your worried... I think if the head is pitted you may need a replacement second hand engine.. . It may be cheaper in the long run
#16: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: ElectronZero, Location: North BucksPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:33 pm ---- Popping into my local head skimmers tomorrow to see if it can be sorted with a skim....
#17: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:56 pm ---- Cost me £40 for a head skim and it was pretty bad
#18: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: ElectronZero, Location: North BucksPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:43 pm ---- That does not look good at all, did you go back and get it fixed correctly?
#19: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:23 pm ---- I think that's before the skim
#20: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:18 pm ----
Steve206 wrote:
I think that's before the skim
Correct. This was post skim
#21: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macj, Location: EssexPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:20 am ---- Got a picture showing the bores
#22: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:21 pm ----
macj wrote:
Got a picture showing the bores
Best one I got at the time of stripping
#23: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:42 pm ---- Did you lock the cams and crank when you did yours?
#24: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macj, Location: EssexPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:44 am ---- No need to worry about where TDC is now. You can get it right now and mark the crank pulley. I am sure there is locking hole in the flywheel and one on the cam wheel. You may need the special plug though for the flywheel end
#25: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:03 pm ---- I just used an allen key to lock the flywheel and 10mm bolt in the cam pulley. The hole to lock the crank is a pig to get to though and ended up removing the oil filter housing to make life simpler.
#26: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: macj, Location: EssexPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:06 pm ---- Good call I reckon
#27: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: ElectronZero, Location: North BucksPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:12 pm ---- Got the head back. £28 + vat from HeadLine in Milton Keynes. Very nice job and done in one day! Now to put it all back together....
#28: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: ElectronZero, Location: North BucksPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:34 am ---- Final update: Once the engine was apart I was able to move the main pulley and lock the engine side for the timing hole. I then rebuilt the head (even if I had managed to get the cam shaft locked in the correct point it would of been wasted as that section was completely dismantled for the head to be skimmed). Very useful to use compressed air to clean the head after skimming as lots of metal bits left after this process.
With the head on the engine I then put the cam in the correct timing hole point and locked it with a short bolt through the timing hole. I then fitted the cam belt and all other bits removed. Once all in place I very carefully manually turned the engine over about 6 times to check that no valves were snagging or other nightmare events
Car started first time and is now running great.
Summary: If you are stripping and skimming your cylinder head then should not be necessary to lock timing points when dismantling as these can be done when rebuilding (my own experience and opinion on a 206).
Many thanks for all those of you who offered advice and assistance. If I can ever be of help then please post. I now have a Vpecker diag scanner so might be able to assist other 206 owners in diagnosing issues in the the north Bucks area.
#29: Re: Unable to manually move engine to TDC to lock cam. Author: panther12, Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:14 am ---- I did a 1.1 headgasket last year to fix the common oil leak problem from the head. Think I used a long L shaped allen to lock the crank. After the work it was a bit gutless on low end power (pulling off and steep hills) so thought I'd messed up somewhere but I re-adjusted the tappets from a tight fitting feeler gauge setting to a tad on the sloppy side which improved it. Just got the oil leak from the sump to fix now.
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