#1: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:15 pm ---- My daughter has a W reg 1.4 8V petrol.
The temperature gauge sits on 70. It is not my car so i don't know if this is new but she states that it has always done this.
I haven't investigated yet if the heater is hot or just warm nor if with the engine running but car stationary will it eventually get hot enough for the fan to cut in or how long that takes.
Neither have I done the top hose test - a permanently stuck open thermostat means the top hose will gradually warm with the engine rather than get hot suddenly when the thermostat opens.
The water level is correct; it does not use water and does not overheat.
It could be:-
Thermostat stuck or opening early.
Defective sensor.
Inaccurate gauge.
I am new to Peugeot so a few questions please:-
Once warmed up do these cars temperature gauges usually sit at a steady 90?
Does the gauge on these sit rock steady (most manufacturers "damp" the gauge to sit rock steady at 90 even with engine temp anywhere between 84 and 98) or in normal driving fluctuate between mid 80s to high 90s.
Is this car fitted with a two speed cooling fan or is that later models only.
Are the sensors / gauges on these usually accurate or do they vary due to manufacturing tolerances?
Is there any free or cheap software available to connect to the ECU and take the ECU readings and do I use a KKL or ELM cable?
#2: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gau Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:20 pm ---- You need to test the car to see what its doing.
Coolant temp sensor is a well known failure point & the thermostats aint much better.
Temp gauge should rise up to just past 90 deg C, thermostat opens & gauge needle should then drop to just under the 90 deg C mark.
If the car is sitting still the temp gauge will then rise again till the low speed cooling fan cuts in to cool it back down.
2 speed cooling fan on the 206, wires rot out & the fan either stops working or you loose the low speed.
#3: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: devotedsniper, Location: Tamworth, StaffordshirePosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:24 pm ---- I'd check your thermostat, when mine was missing (got conned, head gasket was gone so they took it out) it would sit at 60-70c for an hour and it would take 5-10mins of sitting on the drive doing nothing afterwards before it would get to 80 (and then go down as soon as it got on the move again). Since installing a thermostat it sits at 80 and rises to 90 in traffic jams (and only takes 5 mins of driving to get up to temp).
#4: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gau Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:26 pm ---- I done temp sensor & thermostat on my TU3 last month, normally running temp is just under 90 deg C.
Thermostat opening temp is 89 deg C.
#5: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:37 pm ---- MrBSI: Thank you. I am a long retired mechanic and just been through exactly the same exercise with my son's Alfa 147. That was obviously the stat but made much easier as there is some great free software (FiatECUScan - Fiat is Alfa now) that allows interrogation of the ECU readings.
Do you have any experience of ECU reading on these cars and what software / cable combination works best or is there an expert on this forum that is best to approach for advice on what (cheap) kit is best to use.
Looking for something that will read and reset; not just read - although just reading would be a great start if resetting is expensive
#6: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:43 pm ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
Do you have any experience of ECU reading on these cars and what software / cable combination works best or is there an expert on this forum that is best to approach for advice on what (cheap) kit is best to use.
Peugeot Planet / Citroen Lexia is what you want
You just need a laptop running Windows XP.
Planet / Lexia seems to be coming down in price, you can get the software free if you look in the right places, its just getting hold of the interface / leads that costs a little.
You dont actually need any software as you can measure the resistance of the temp sensor as the car warms up, there is some data on the forum somewhere that was posted up in the last month or so.
For what a new temp sensor & stat cost I would be tempted to change both.
Check Peugeot / Citroen main dealer price on the thermostat as they where cheaper then Euro car parts & GSF when I bought mine.
#7: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:06 pm ---- MrBSI: For info.
Almost every single thermostat opening temperature is now 88-90 degrees. That coincides with the fact that modern oils are designed to work between 82 and 98 degrees and the thermostat opening temperature is at the mid point of the ideal oil operating temperature.
Thermostats do have lag and driving in normal open road with occasional roundabouts and traffic lights will see coolant temperatures fluctuate between about 84 and 96 as the thermostat takes time to react to the water temperature rise and fall.
Many drivers will scream, "not in my car it doesn't"
"Sorry, but yes it does" is my reply.
However, this is rarely seen on modern dashboard temperature gauges because to avoid drivers getting worried by fluctuating temperatures the manufacturers now "damp" the dashboard gauge or intercept the signal from the ECU and force the dash gauge to be static at an indicated 90 degrees for any water temp between 82 and 98. I have tested Alfas, Fords and Fiats and it is correct for every one of their modern cars.
So if, once your car is initially up to temperature, the gauge fluctuates when driving this indicates that you have a failing stat, pump or blocked radiator. My money is almost always on a thermostat failure.
#8: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:10 am ---- Excellent thread.
Been through exactly this with mine recently as some on here might recall.
Main reason is wax cylinder in the stat fatiguing and opening more than it should generaly, or
just being stuck-open.
This is a designed falure mode because stuck-open is better than stuck-closed obviously.
Advantages of running the engine at the proper 90 C temp as I understand it include better mix adjustment
by the ECU, better cat efficiency, fuel efficiency and overall running of the engine.
It is also a good one to keep the temp as steady as possible to avoid cyclical stress of engine and parts.
What I do to check the engine temp sensor is use any old diag tool to compare the air-intake temp reading
with the engine temp reading, which at low temps should be roughly the same.
P.S. Temp reading needle on the dash is not damped on the 206.
#9: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gau Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:21 am ---- My coolant temp & also oil temp are both reading around 90 deg C once warmed up.
I can get the oil temp to rise up a bit if the car goes on a long high speed run
Highest ive seen the oil temp is 115 deg C after a while on the motorway.
#10: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:08 am ---- On my 2001 1.4i there is only engine temp and air-intake temp reading in diagnostics.
No oil temp reading on the dash either so I assume there is no sensor for it.
#11: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:14 am ----
V9977 wrote:
On my 2001 1.4i there is only engine temp and air-intake temp reading in diagnostics.
No oil temp reading on the dash either so I assume there is no sensor for it.
Was a retro fit
Change the oil level sensor for the combined oil level & temp sensor, change the instrument cluster for a unit with oil temp gauge, tweak the BSI config to tell it there is an oil temp sensor now fitted.
#12: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:00 am ---- Istill haven't had time to investigate yet but, as some on here have found, the thermostats are sometimes removed to disquise a failing head gasket. I don't think it is that but will report all once I have had a chance to investigate properly.
Now to find a cheap (free?) copy of either Peugeot Planet or Citroen Lexia. It looks like "bettyswollocks" is the expert there and if I am struggling I'll contact them unless there is anyone here that can help with some links!!!!
#13: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:08 am ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
Now to find a cheap (free?) copy of either Peugeot Planet or Citroen Lexia.
Software is totally useless without the leads, you cant even install it fully without the dongle
#14: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:24 am ---- MrBSI: yes i am aware that I will need the lead. I have a KKL lead for my son's 147 but haven't investigated the 206 yet. Is it a standard OBD connection and can I use a cheap ELM lead from fleabay.
I wasn't aware there is a "dongle." I assume that this is in addition to the lead to connect it to the car or is it a lead that is used in series with the main connector?
I note that a lot of the lead sets include a serial port lead; is it essential that the PC has a serial port to use the software as my laptop with serial port has just died and this laptop doesn't have one.
Is there a "how to" on here as I can't find one using the search function.
#15: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:25 am ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
MrBSI: yes i am aware that I will need the lead. I have a KKL lead for my son's 147 but haven't investigated the 206 yet. Is it a standard OBD connection and can I use a cheap ELM lead from fleabay.
Planet / Lexia software only works with the correct Planet / Lexia leads.
#16: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:01 pm ---- MrBSI: Thank you. I think I have found some interesting threads now. Off for a read. Any more posting on fault codes and ECU reading will now be on a new thread.I think this should stay with my original thermostat problem from here on.
#17: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:53 am ----
V9977 wrote:
On my 2001 1.4i there is only engine temp and air-intake temp reading in diagnostics.
No oil temp reading on the dash either so I assume there is no sensor for it.
Both temp gauges on mine show around the same reading once the engines up to running temp after driving for a few minutes, coolant temp gauge is below rev couter & oil temp gauge on right.
#18: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: SteveTDCi, Location: StamfordPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:11 pm ---- Mine is doing this, i've got the thermostat which i'll try first, if that doesn't do it then i'll try the sensor and if that doesn't do it .... i'll hit things with a hammer until they do work
#19: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:16 pm ---- SteveTDCi: why not get some OBD software and ELM lead and compare your water temp from the ECU against the gauge reading. This should tell you if your gauge is reading accurately and the thrmostat is at fault.
A quick check for thermostat stuck open or partially open = start the car from cold. Keep your hand on the top radiator hose. if the hose warms up slowly with the engine then the thermostat is not fully closing. That is a thermostat failure. If the hose suddenly gets hot that is thermostat opening when the water gets up to temperature.
This is a reasonable basic test but on some thermostats the springs eventually get weak and they will open in a rush but open early.
#20: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: SteveTDCi, Location: StamfordPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:06 pm ---- Thanks, I've got the thermostat already so I'll try that first, the lead software and laptop will make it expensive
#21: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: SteveTDCi, Location: StamfordPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:03 pm ---- Thermostat changed and the temp now goes above 70 ! I'm still not happy though
#22: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:14 pm ----
SteveTDCi wrote:
Thermostat changed and the temp now goes above 70 ! I'm still not happy though
New coolant temp sensor time, common issue on the TU lumps
I only found out my thermostat was faulty aswell after I changed the coolant temp sensor
#23: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: SteveTDCi, Location: StamfordPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:20 pm ----
MrBSI wrote:
SteveTDCi wrote:
Thermostat changed and the temp now goes above 70 ! I'm still not happy though
New coolant temp sensor time, common issue on the TU lumps
I only found out my thermostat was faulty aswell after I changed the coolant temp sensor
Yeah its next on the list, i just need to let them know which one i have since I'm told there are several, mines just a two wire one. It smells like its running a little rich so i'll change the temp sensor first before going elsewhere
#24: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:23 pm ----
SteveTDCi wrote:
MrBSI wrote:
SteveTDCi wrote:
Thermostat changed and the temp now goes above 70 ! I'm still not happy though
New coolant temp sensor time, common issue on the TU lumps
I only found out my thermostat was faulty aswell after I changed the coolant temp sensor
Yeah its next on the list, i just need to let them know which one i have since I'm told there are several, mines just a two wire one. It smells like its running a little rich so i'll change the temp sensor first before going elsewhere
Check the colour of the connector plug, some are green & others blue.
Just match the colour & you cant really go wrong.
#25: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: Timon2210, Location: PalestinePosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:40 am ---- Mine had a problem with temp recently,When I start the car,the temp reach the 70,and stay on the 70 mark for long time of driving like 20-30 min. then after that the temp reach the 80 and after a while hit the 90 mark and after driving for longer time,the fan on low speed kicks in after 90 and get it back to 90 sharp.
So I changed the thermostat,and still the same,nothing changed,so I guess it's time for a new temp sensor,and hopefuly this will solve the problem,because car is running rich,and consume more pertol now :(.
Any suggestions before I do that?
#26: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:03 am ---- Re-written now (tonight) that I have found the blue sensor that is so well hidden - though not changed yet
When stood still the indicated temp slowly rises to just under 90 and the cooling fan cuts in. Temp drops quickly to just over 80 and fan cuts out.
Normal driving and it is still holding 70.
Everything now points to the sensor except I think it has high fuel consumption.
My daughter does short runs between 4-6 miles and rarely more. She is a very steady driver (and, I believe, steady even when her parents aren't in the car) and is getting 28mpg. Is this normal in these temperatures for a 1.4 8V petrol LX. It seems quite high to me. My son has a 51 plate 16V 1.6 Alfa 147 and drives it much, much harder. He drives similar short trips and is getting 31mpg.
I am not looking to tangle the sensor and thermostat but will probably change both!
The car has done 57,000 miles, is recently serviced with all filters, fluids and plugs renewed. If this consumption is high is there anything else that is a common problem that can cause this? I don't think it pulls quite as hard as I expect but there is no misfiring either hot or cold, it does not use water and no signs of head gasket problems. The plugs, changed 1,500 miles ago, were a very good colour.
One thought is that the timing belt had been changed before we bought the car. Does anyone know if these will run without valves meeting pistons if the valve timing is one tooth out? Is this a possible cause?
#27: Re: Temperature gauge reading 70 - thermostat, sensor or gauge? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:16 pm ---- Thermostat and sensor now changed (genuine Peugeot supplied items) and thermostat was stamped 89 . Gauge now fluctuates between 82 and about 88 so while I think that is a little low I will treat it as correct.
I had intended to change one item at a time but my daughter was in a hurry for the car so both got done at the same time; doing both while in a rush made sense to me at the time but now typing it out it no longer seem logical! Anyway it does mean that I will not know if it was the stat or the sensor.
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