#1: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:00 pm ---- hi there all
i have bought a 2002 206 1.1
TUP1 HFX (merelli system) (multiplex)
i am in the mists of sorting out a few issus with the car
mainly Fan/sensor related
the car has at sometime had a bump in the front so someone has replaced the rad and fans and cowling with a non aircon set and wired the fans as if non aircon
like
fan supply from + to rad stat to fan to ground
but i want to put the car back to std meaning repairing the original 2 relay+ resistor system
which i have done!
my issue is
i have an issue when testing using Peugeot planet!
the dash clocks in peugeot planet shows the correct temperature say 14c
but
read the coolant temperature in the ecu and Planet reads 92c
when car is cold!
now if the car is run up to temp
dash clocks read correctly 14c up to running temp 92c
but
the ECU reads 92c down to 42c
if car is left idling the ecu logs a fault when the sensor switch cuts in
i have changed the sensor on top of the thermostat housing
part number (1338 A6) blue 3pin only two pins used.
there is a sensor switch below in the block a 1 pin blue and is open circuit until high temp is reached
questions are
is the ecu and dash clocks the same sensor?
have i got the right sensor?
or am i reading peugeot planet wrong?
#2: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: Edward, Location: In the garagePosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:24 pm ---- Some of these cars use two coolant sensors don't they?
#3: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:24 pm ---- I believe that you should have three sensors as follows:-
A blue one for the gauge. As you look at the car it is on the RH side of the cylinder head fairly low down - that is why you think it is in the block. it isn't it is in the head. A bit hidden but you will find it.
A green one for the ecu. Fitted to the coolant outlet housing. (it seems you may have the wrong sensor fitted here.)
A brown or grey sensor for the fan close to and in front of the green one.
I am not so familiar with the AC model cars but worked on one many months ago and IIRC this is correct and does tie up with the description in Haynes manual of what and where.
#4: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:36 pm ---- acording to autodata there is only the two as per the drawing which are linked direct to the ECU
and the dash is CAN linked to the fuseboard which is CAN linked to the ECU
peugeot planet sedre drawings are wrong for this car but autodata drawings trace out ok
im confused now
the blue sensor on the state housing is all original wiring no cut and shuts
so to is the blue 1 pin located in the head under the stat housing
all the plug colours match the sensor colours too
#5: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:37 pm ---- If I have it right this link is a fan sensor:-
I firmly believe that ebay have the descriptions wrong. Also note that I don't think Eurocarparts will help; the last time I tried they listed about 6 different sensors for the same car. They are as confused as most other none genuine dealers.
You can check the temp sensors for gauge and ecu as follows:-
With the engine hot unplug the blue one and the temp gauge should go to zero.
With the engine hot unplug the green one and the engine revs should increase. This is because the ecu will think the engine is cold and increase the fuelling and throttle.
#6: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:40 pm ---- OK we have been typing at the same time. I may be recalling the AC car incorrectly. I recommend you either find another AC car to compare or ask at your Peugeot main dealers parts department to look at the sensors. They are usually very helpful as they have a potential sale.
Personally the Peugeot main dealer parts staff here in Swindon have been the most helpful and polite main dealer I have used.
#7: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:41 pm ---- You might have the wrong sensor fitted. There is a 3-pin and a 2-pin one is green the other is blue. Double-check on that.
The other sensor on the side of the block is just an overheat condition trip-switch at 120 C and makes the gauge jump to red etc.
#8: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:41 pm ---- 500 posts now makes me 5 stars. I wonder haw many have been useless?!
#9: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:42 pm ---- the blue on top of the stat
if i unplug this when car is hot idle increases and fans run also logs a fault in ecu sensor open circuit
#10: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:47 pm ---- picture taken from service box showing blue 3 pin sensor (item5)
#11: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:50 pm ---- I think someone MAY have bodged the wiring somewhere and possibly changed the thermostat housing to reduce the sensors to match the fan control system. Exactly what sensors do you have, what colours, how many pins and how many pins are used? Can you post pictures of them in their fitted positions?
picture taken from service box showing blue 3 pin sensor (item5)
OK, why do you say only 2 pins used then?
That's the 3-pin type pins 1&2 for ECU and pin 3&chassis for dash temp-gauge iirc.
#13: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:56 pm ---- this engine is original
2002
TUP1 HFX (merelli system) (multiplex)
L4
sensors are
blue sensor 3pin only two pins used
blue sensor 1 pin
wired as this drawing direct to ecu via original loom no cuts no tape
That's the 3-pin type pins 1&2 for ECU and pin 3&chassis for dash temp-gauge iirc.
yes i would agree with you if i were talking about a DW10 HDI
that uses all 3 wires
but this 206 only uses just the two
#16: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:03 pm ---- I think you will find that in the drawing supplied by V9977 that item 2 (plug) is where the fan control sensor should be.
Now here is where the confusion starts (or Haynes b******s) the drawings in there suggest that there is an "alternative" sensor arrangement! So you could have fan / gauge control via just a single sensor or two seperate sensors!
I have seen cars with three sensors. One in the head and two on the thermostst housing.
On that note I repeat previous advice. Go to Peugeot and ask to see their sensors for your car. Last edited by kandlbarrett on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
That's the 3-pin type pins 1&2 for ECU and pin 3&chassis for dash temp-gauge iirc.
yes i would agree with you if i were talking about a DW10 HDIthat uses all 3 wires
but this 206 only uses just the two
Idon't know what you're trying to say because 3 pins are not just for that engine, I have two 1.4i 206 (mux&non-mux) TU3 and can assure you they don't just chuck in there pins for cost saving when it comes to sensors.
I hope you get it working but I really have made an incredible f-up on this keyboard which I have to quickly throw in the rubish before the 'boss' finds-out.
Good luck!
#19: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:08 pm ---- Some cars do have a sensor where that plug is. I have seen them!
Some cars do have a sensor where that plug is. I have seen them!
Yes, and some use a bung too.
Peugeot definately good idea agreed.
S186 is indeed the overheat trip switch (classic gauge jump to red) incase of airlock preventing flow to the sensor up top.
#21: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:15 pm ---- thanks guys i will have another look, but i cant get the car to peugeot garage as its sorned,
i guess i best right down all the info and take a trip down to peugeot in the trusty 306
#22: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:38 pm ---- V9977: on the 1.4 8V preplex the blue sensor in the side of the head as I have described and is definitely for variable reading of the gauge. I have replaced it on my daughters car and that fixed the gauge. Also unplugging it makes the gauge drop to zero and all other gauge readings seem accurate. I don't think the 1.4 8V has the jump to red sensor.
Peugeot certainly know how to confuse or keep info to themselves with the temp sensors on these cars.
#23: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:40 pm ---- cully: take photos on your phone of both the sensors with connectors fitted and with the connectors disconnected so you can see the pin arrangements. Worth a thousand words and you won't forget anything.
V9977: on the 1.4 8V preplex the blue sensor in the side of the head as I have described and is definitely for variable reading of the gauge. I have replaced it on my daughters car and that fixed the gauge. Also unplugging it makes the gauge drop to zero and all other gauge readings seem accurate. I don't think the 1.4 8V has the jump to red sensor.
Peugeot certainly know how to confuse or keep info to themselves with the temp sensors on these cars.
Not on my 1.4 8V 2001.
Definately on-off jump to red single-pin ref. chassis. (from bitter experience!)
Might be different in your case which I would find surprising because of the much lower position water level, in relation to the other one up top.
But hey it's Peugeot as you say, so yeh they can do whatever they want.
#25: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:29 pm ---- My daughter's gauge always reads about 80 deg rather than an expected 90. I have assumed that is because of the relatively low positioning of the sensor.
Her car is 2000 "W" plate.
Haynes shows her blue gauge sensor exactly where I found it on the engine!
Weird or what? Confusing as hell.
If I have time I will take some pics and post them some time soon.
I think I might try to get some pics of sensors on other cars - get a collection for a "how to" clarifying posts.
#26: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:41 am ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
My daughter's gauge always reads about 80 deg rather than an expected 90. I have assumed that is because of the relatively low positioning of the sensor.
Her car is 2000 "W" plate.
Haynes shows her blue gauge sensor exactly where I found it on the engine!
Weird or what? Confusing as hell.
If I have time I will take some pics and post them some time soon.
I think I might try to get some pics of sensors on other cars - get a collection for a "how to" clarifying posts.
Yep, had exactly the same too.
Only when I compared the gauge reading with that from the live-data in PP2000 did I realise how inaccurate the dash gauge really is, on a non-mux 206 at least. Before that I had replaced thermostat, coolant, pump and so on and forth. Gauge was 8 to 12 C out depending on position, and about 80 C, at actual engine temp of 90 C .
3-pin temp sensors have two thermistor elements inside: One for the gauge (pin 3&chassis) and a different isolated one within the same sensor for the ECU (pin1 & 2).
Correlation between ECU reading and dash temp reading is random, way-way out, and this is normal.
The mux 2008 model 1.4i is OK on this though. Go figure.
#27: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:51 am ---- i see the jury is still out on this
i will take some pictures of the sensors
and some screen shots of Peugeot planet showing the sensor values
the ECU dont need to be calabrated to read the thermistor correctly does it??
#28: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:51 am ----
cully wrote:
i see the jury is still out on this
i will take some pictures of the sensors
and some screen shots of Peugeot planet showing the sensor values
the ECU dont need to be calabrated to read the thermistor correctly does it??
No.
#29: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:44 am ---- everyone likes photos
PP2000
scan
BSI Temp readings car cold not running
Engine ECU temp readings car cold not running
BSI temp after running 10 mins notice coolant temp increasing!
i have tested the Fan from within the ecu in planet and it works ok
#30: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:47 am ---- ECU info Data
#31: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:58 am ---- 1) Why are you running V24.46 for PP2000?
2) Is your λ-sensor normaly unpluged, or?
3) What is the dash gauge showing all the while in the above snap-shots?
4) If you carefully go into ECU configs, (engine managment>manual configuration) what setting is the cooling system, "2/3 speed Fan with A/C" or what? Do not attempt changing configs with the clone interface as it is very risky indeed.
#32: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:10 am ----
V9977 wrote:
1) Why are you running V24.46 for PP2000?
2) Is your λ-sensor normaly unpluged, or?
3) What is the dash gauge showing all the while in the above snap-shots?
4) If you carefully go into ECU configs, (engine managment>manual configuration) what setting is the cooling system, "2/3 speed Fan with A/C" or what? Do not attempt changing configs with the clone interface as it is very risky indeed.
1) thats what was on the dvd that came with the lexia. is there an issue?
2) only unplugged for the pictures
3) shows below scale reading
4) yes it is configured to "2/3 speed Fan with A/C"
#33: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:19 am ---- 1) OK (sometimes live data is not shown properly unless the engine is running, sometimes not)
2) OK
3) You are getting no reading at all from the temp-gauge? and What are the faults with the instrument panel (trouble codes)?
4) OK
What does the plug that goes into the temp sensor look like, how many wires on it and is it different shade of blue?
Could the wax-thermostat be stuck open or opening early causing the temp drop? The gauge has severe damping on it as well so it takes a while for it to 'catch-up' with the ECU temp reading (which can be a bit confusing).
#34: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:32 am ---- Also remembered the two thermistors in the temp sensor are opposite temp coefficient, one raises resistance as it heats-up (NTC) whereas the other drops in resistance (PTC) - might be relevant, might not be.
#35: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:39 am ----
V9977 wrote:
3) You are getting no reading at all from the temp-gauge? and What are the faults with the instrument panel (trouble codes)?
What does the plug that goes into the temp sensor look like, how many wires on it and is it different shade of blue?
my bad i forgot to look in there
i will have to look tomorrow as i have to go to work very soon
also forgot to upload the plug picture
the original sensor was the same colour as the plug (blue)
it has two wires connected the third has a small plastic bung blank in the cable entry with no terminal in the plug.
the patern sensor that is fitted now is a slight different blue but the issues still the same with both sensors
#36: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: cully, Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:42 am ---- i will have to check if the plug is wired right as in
brown pin 1
white pin 2
#37: Re: engine coolant fans/sensor Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:50 am ---- So is your dash temp reading working in any way, even if 'wrong'?
Yes check wires but Peugeot are a bit random when it comes to colours of wires. There should number codes on the wires themselves if you can still make them out, which match with the Autodata refs in my experience.
Also make sure you get orientation right for pin 1 etc.
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