The O2 Sensors makes sense as I am getting the "Antipollution fault" when the car is started. Anyone know of what the other stuff is.
#2: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:33 am ---- I would check out and fix/change the O2 sensor as it's obviously causing problems and you may well see the other codes disappear as fuel trims will be excessive and flagged (P0170) and you are experiencing misfires which is to be expected when the ECU has no idea what is happening in the exhaust Last edited by Deckchair5 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
#3: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: xdoddyx, Location: NewcastlePosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:58 am ---- Taken from Peugeot Central:
P0170 means there was a malfunction in the ECU's control of the air:fuel ratio.
Fuel saturated engine oil
Possibly bad O2 sensor
(Oil contamination in MAF connector or O2 sensor connectors. Also check ignition coils, cam and crank sensors.
Defective MAF
P1337 - Faulty Crankshaft Sensor, which could also be flagging up the P0170.
P0132 - A code P0132 may mean that one or more of the following has happened: The oxygen sensor heater circuit is shorted out The wiring to the sensor is broken / frayed
P0131 - A code P0131 may mean that one or more of the following has happened: Faulty o2 oxygen sensor Short to voltage on O2 signal circuit High resistance or open on O2 signal circuit.
Replace the Lambda sensors, and get the codes wiped, see if that takes any of the codes away.
If the P1337 and P0170 still remain, do a test on the coil pack, aswell as the crank sensor.
#4: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:30 pm ---- There's no need to change both O2 sensors. It's flagging the bank1, sensor1, so that's the precat sensor only that's being indentified for investigation and, if necessary, replacement
The P0170 excessive fuel trim is no surprise when the precat O2 sensor is malfunctioning
#5: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:52 pm ---- So would this bad lambda sensor usually cause a lack of power? I have just got the car so no sure what to expect.
Also, is there a method of checking if the sensor is faulty before buying a new one?
#6: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:02 pm ---- So would this bad lambda sensor usually cause a lack of power?
The lambda is to help ECU trim for maximum economy under steady throttle conditions so without it the car will have bad fuel consumption
is there a method of checking if the sensor is faulty before buying a new one?
Sure, but it depends on your equipment and capabilities. click here
#7: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:09 pm ---- Don't laugh but I read on several forums that when they get this fault they go to the BP garage and put £20 of that Ultimate fuel in and it sometimes clears it. You think there is any truth in this?
#8: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:25 pm ---- Ha! Can't see that curing a bad O2 sensor if that's what you have. If you're unable to test the O2 sensor circuit then I would just put a new precat O2 sensor in there as they're not that expensive and your car is stating it's not happy at all with the present one's output
They don't last forever and have a pretty tough life in the heat and vibration of the exhaust Last edited by Deckchair5 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
#9: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:37 pm ---- Ok thanks.
I have searched eBay for 02 sensors and find plenty but they don't say if they are pre cat, how do I know if its the right one?
Also, is it best to get a branded one or will a cheap one do the job? There is a huge range in prices.
#10: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:53 pm ---- Branded one will always be less hassle as they are dealing with very small voltages of less than 1v
Look in Servicebox click here to get your sensor type ref number for your vehicle and then you know you are getting the right one
#11: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:07 am ---- Thanks very much. You have been a great help. Same to other members who posted here.
#12: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:21 am ---- Anyone ever heard of Volz Autoteile? They have the sensors for £20-£30. Should I just play it safe and get an NGK one for £60?
#13: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:34 am ---- Are you looking on Ebay? You can normally get a proper Peugeot model dedicated O2 sensor with the right connector, delivered for under £30. You don't need to go mad with prices but you do want one that is intended for your vehicle
#14: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:01 am ---- Yeah it is eBay I am looking on.
#15: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:18 am ---- Way to go then
#16: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:02 am ---- I ordered one from eBay. Hopefully I manage to fit it easy.
#17: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:08 pm ---- As easy as changing a spark plug really
Make sure to reset the fault codes afterwards otherwise it may go on ignoring the flagged sensor, clearing the codes will also reset the fuel trims and allow the ECU to readjust again to using the new sensor
#18: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:55 am ---- Well I got it and fitted it today but there is no change, error code is still there which was expected but the car still hangs on to the revs so the fuel problem is still there. Just hope clearing the code will fix it.
Worrying though, the sensor was undone by hand. I was expecting it to be ultra tight as someone told me that they sometimes have to be burnt off. So guess the previous owner must of been in at it.
#19: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:01 pm ---- Yes, as stated before, you'll need to reset the fault codes otherwise it just assumes the bad sensor is still there. It'll take a little while to settle in with the best settings to the new sensor too
You're right to be concerned that the sensor was only in hand tight. It certainly suggests someone careless was messing about with it
#20: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:47 am ---- Thanks very much for everyone's help.
I bought a diagnostic tool for £10 of Amazon, just plugged it in, hit reset and bye bye "Anti Pollution Fault".
Thanks again.
#21: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:32 pm ---- Well the fault is back. I am stumped
#22: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: xdoddyx, Location: NewcastlePosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:11 pm ---- Is the problem still there? or is it just the Anti pollution light.
#23: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:02 pm ---- If it's a 1.4 TU3 and the revs also hang, check intake/exhaust valve tappets clearance.
It would also explain lack of power.
#24: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:08 am ---- The anti pollution warning is a diagnosis over a period of time so by just clearing the fault code then it's just a matter of time before reappears if the fault is still there
First step is to read your present fault codes. We presume your pre cat O2 sensor fault is now fixed so that one should not be reappearing. On a better scan tool you may see freeze frame data which will give more of a clue as to why APF is being triggered.
Ideally, with better scan equipment, you want to see the output traces from your pre cat and post cat sensors to compare them and then you can see what the OBD is seeing and why the APF is on. The OBD wants to see frequent switching from the pre cat and fairly flat trace from the post cat sensor at steady rpm. If the post cat mirrors the pre cat then it shows the cat isn't doing anything
A misfire can also trigger an APF as the O2 sensors will be affected by the excess fuel so look at the fault codes and post them up
#25: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:44 am ---- It's a 1.4 Quicksilver, the revs were hanging before I changed the o2 sensor.
That's strange because I tried resetting the codes a few days prior to changing the sensor and it returned straight away, however after I changed the sensor and reset codes the faut was gone. I will plug it in again tonight and see what it says.
#26: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:37 pm ---- I just checked, I am getting the p0353 and p0135. First one is something to do with an ignition coil and the second one appears to be the heated oxygen sensor again.
#27: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:22 pm ---- P0135 O2 sensor heater circuit malfunction
This is different to fault you had before as this relates purely to the O2 heater circuit and not the signal circuit
I'd back probe the O2 sensor connector, you can use a metal pin, check for power and reference earth at the O2 sensor heater wires,they'll be the two wires that are the same colour. Check the resistance thru the sensor across the two heater wires with sensor disconnected, should be just a few ohms
P0353 is detected misfiring so do you notice misfiring? Freeze frame data could be useful to help you detect when it's occuring
#28: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:53 am ---- Misfiring (v.slight and rare), lack of power, poor fuel economy, revs hang, λ-related DTC all ring bells of valve adjustment needed to me..
Also note I've seen heater circuit fault come-up on the 206 only to find that it's 100% working fine in all respects (full tests from ECU continuity, Ω of heater resistor etc) and it was indeed to do with running of the engine by the ECU.
How many miles on the clock?
#29: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:57 am ---- I'd still check for power and earth at the O2 heater circuit as you can have continuity and heater element resistance be correct but without power and earth then no current is flowing. If the current is less than 0.1amp then it triggers the P0135 and as someone has been playing about with it then it could easily be just a simple blown fuse.
If the pre cat O2 sensor isn't getting up to temp then the emissions go to pot and you get the APF
I'd still check for power and earth at the O2 heater circuit as you can have continuity and heater element resistance be correct but without power and earth then no current is flowing. If the current is less than 0.1amp then it triggers the P0135 and as someone has been playing about with it then it could easily be just a simple blown fuse.
If the pre cat O2 sensor isn't getting up to temp then the emissions go to pot and you get the APF
Good points and yes check, but you can have 100% correct λ-sensor opperation with proper voltage across the heater (+ve supplied by the relay beneath the ECU) correct current flow etc and still get the heater circuit DTC.
This ofcourse is not meant to be.
How many miles on the clock?
#31: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:09 am ---- It's best to tackle recorded faults logically, when the car spots a fault and you can't find it then it generally means the car's on board diagnostics is better than yours Freeze frame data will tell exactly what and when and under what circumstances the fault occurs and how frequently that happens and it can't lie. The difference is that the car's OBD is monitoring everything for the whole journey which is different from checking things when it's static in a garage
It's best to tackle recorded faults logically, when the car spots a fault and you can't find it then it generally means the car's on board diagnostics is better than yours Freeze frame data will tell exactly what and when and under what circumstances the fault occurs and how frequently that happens and it can't lie. The difference is that the car's OBD is monitoring everything for the whole journey which is different from checking things when it's static in a garage
Yes, it can and does regularly.
OBD is not a perfect system (esp. on a 206) and in no way should it be taken as 100% correct all the time.
Very often what appears as a certain or multiple faults, will have to do with something completely un-obvious related to the DTC given.
It's meant to assist in diagnosis, but in no way replace human evaluation and fault-finding.. yet.
I'm sure you agree with this and know already what I'm trying to say, and the OP should definately make the checks you point-out (if he's still around).
However, in my experience valve tappet adjustment should be absolutely mandatory on the TU3 every 25.000 miles or if you have engine-running related issues like the OP.
#33: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:27 am ---- No, you're quite wrong there. Freeze frame data cannot lie, it can't invent the data. That's what actually occurred and it's the reason why the OBD has triggered a fault
I'll agree with you that how the OBD interprets that data into a suggested fault code can be mystifying (but that's the fault of the programmer) and how the technician interprets that fault code is also open to errors (and that's the fault of the technician) but the OBD is telling you exactly what happened in the freeze frame data to make it record a fault and makes a best guess suggestion as to which system needs further investigation
Often we'll see someone see a fault code and then immediately just change a component and wonder why that didn't work, even some garages seem to adopt this strategy too, at the customer's expense But really the fault code is a suggestion of where to look deeper and then it's up to the technician to make an informed decision after further investigations
Freeze frame data cannot lie, it can't invent the data. That's what actually occurred and it's the reason why the OBD has triggered a fault.
With all respect it can. Esp. with clone interface and even IF it has the parameter in question available in real-time, you interpreting it is one thing and the ECU flagging DTC's from reading it is quite another.
I won't even start on PP2000 itself..
Bear in-mind 206 ECU's are riddled with bugs/errors which if you're lucky might get covered in an update, if you actually perform the update.
You are also assuming that the ECU's measuring components (ADC/DAC etc) are as good as brand new. In a hot engine bay after 10 or 15 years they drift/fail and that's why there are companies that do overhauls due to wear/faults on them like BBA reman etc. To be expected really as they don't exactly put mil-spec components in there.
Most importantly, a lot of data on these systems is 'derived' ie not every single line, voltage, current flow is sampled for diagnostic purposes. (Some might, but I don't believe it's the case with the 206)
A lot of the time a DTC relating to a specific part will come-up based on combinations of readings from other parts of the engine etc.
So even a DTC to do with the λ-sensor heater circuit (which should be very straightforward for the ECU to get right) can sometimes be due to unrelated issues and I have indeed had this exact code on my 1.4i 2001 when the heater circuit was 100% perfect, even after a brand new OEM sensor (and other parts) were changed/checked "just in case" - with a 'scope.
I fully agree, replacing parts just on the basis of a DTC, sometimes, might, only fix the symptom temporarily instead of getting to the root cause of the problem as you say.
#35: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:55 pm ---- Ha! We are going around in circles here
I said
"Freeze frame data cannot lie, it can't invent the data. That's what actually occurred and it's the reason why the OBD has triggered a fault".
A clone interface or even PP2000 has nothing to do with the freeze frame data stored. Whether the engine sensors are tired or hot makes no difference, the freeze frame data tells you WHY the fault code was triggered and it can't invent the data. If the data is inaccurate then it will trigger on that inaccurate data but it can't invent it and cannot lie that it happened if it didn't. An ECU will sit there for ever and never issue a fault code, until the data exceeds certain set parameters
As I said before, a fault code is a best guess interpretation of the data triggers and shows the suggested area for investigation and that's no different than you looking at the data and making an informed interpretation of the data
Example
You have a P0135 DTC and APF warning as in this case. You look at the O2 heater and check out the O2 sensor for continuity and supply and ground and everything seems fine. But what else is on that circuit? You check out the wiring diagram. The electric purge cannister has the same feed. Could a problem there cause a problem on that circuit and trigger both those warnings? Well what do you think?
So the fault code points you in a direction for further investigations. The OBD is doing the best it can and warning of a problem with the anti pollution system and stating there is a fault on the O2 sensor heater circuit but then you have do the checking. Someone can say "I even changed the 02 sensor and it's still saying the same heater circuit problem." Well, yes, it will do
The P0135 fault is an electrical CIRCUIT problem and so needs further investigation on that electrical circuit
Ha! We are going around in circles here
I said
"Freeze frame data cannot lie, it can't invent the data. That's what actually occurred and it's the reason why the OBD has triggered a fault".
A clone interface or even PP2000 has nothing to do with the freeze frame data stored. Whether the engine sensors are tired or hot makes no difference, the freeze frame data tells you WHY the fault code was triggered and it can't invent the data. If the data is inaccurate then it will trigger on that inaccurate data but it can't invent it and cannot lie that it happened if it didn't. An ECU will sit there for ever and never issue a fault code, until the data exceeds certain set parameters
As I said before, a fault code is a best guess interpretation of the data triggers and shows the suggested area for investigation and that's no different than you looking at the data and making an informed interpretation of the data
Example
You have a P0135 DTC and APF warning as in this case. You look at the O2 heater and check out the O2 sensor for continuity and supply and ground and everything seems fine. But what else is on that circuit? You check out the wiring diagram. The electric purge cannister has the same feed. Could a problem there cause a problem on that circuit and trigger both those warnings?
So the fault code points you in a direction for further investigations. The OBD is doing the best it can and warning of a problem with the anti pollution system and stating there is a fault on the O2 sensor heater circuit but then you have do the checking. Someone can say "I even changed the 02 sensor and it's still saying the same heater circuit problem." Well, yes, it will do
Agree with all of the above but I was refering to ECU components not sensors, being heated/failing.
Deckchair5 wrote:
The P0135 fault is an electrical CIRCUIT problem and so needs further investigation on that electrical circuit
Exactly. That was my thought when trying to solve it as you'd think it's not a difficult issue with eg. mixture, misfiring, and all that.
Heater line could be could only be:
1) Open circuit
2) Short to ground
3) Short to +ve
4) Inadequate current flow (eg. worn heater resistor or simillar)
/Interminent or continious.
However, as you point out the +ve feed for the heater comes from the relay beneath the ECU which also supplies Purge canister, the other λ-sensor heater, and the fuel pump if I mind. So if say relay contacts are so inclined with the highish currents involved and all these turning on and off, the ECU can percieve a problem with the heater of the sensor (on mine being the most far away in the loom I should add) while the other said lines fall within tolerance limits.
I'm generalising obviously to make a point but I think we agree essentialy and maybe I didn't say things too well, and drifted a bit.
P.S. Problem went away when I binned the old ECU as other problems were appearing and it was the wrong type for a 206 anyway.
A technician at a Peugeot dealership had replaced it with that of a Partner Van (KFW) sometime in 2003, long before I bought the car. He logged "Updated ECU" in the guarantee file.
#37: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: Deckchair5, Location: Bath UKPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:58 am ---- Problem went away when I binned the old ECU as other problems were appearing and it was the wrong type for a 206 anyway.
A technician at a Peugeot dealership had replaced it with that of a Partner Van (KFW) sometime in 2003, long before I bought the car. He logged "Updated ECU" in the guarantee file
Ha! Well that was nice if them! One would hope that they checked it was compatible before fitting
But there you go, a problem with the O2 heater sensor circuit could just as easily be the ECU as it's obviously a part of that circuit
#38: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: IceWhyte, Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:12 am ---- Hey, I will get round to checking all the points raised soon. I reset it again and the codes haven't come back since but the revs are still hanging. There doesn't seem to be a lack of power anymore though.
There is 50,000 miles on the clock.
#39: Re: Diagnostic Results Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:41 am ---- One problem that people often forget is that the modern engine management systems are "feedback" circuits that correct for suspected faults so they can lie - well sort of.
I always think of the following as the best example:-
An exhaust leak (however slight) before the first lambda will allow air which includes 02 into the exhaust system. The lambda will "see" the excess O2 and feed the signal back to the ECU which will then richen up the mixture to compensate for what appears to be lean running. Ultimately the extra fuel will then destroy the lambda sensor and your CAT as neither will withstand that extra fuel.
That is only one of many types of fault that your sensors will "see" and the ECU will then attempt to correct for when the fault is something entirely different.
So while the systems don't strictly lie they can be fooled and the sensor outputs, while correct, are for the wrong assumed cause. So the morale of the story is to be very careful and check all other parts of the system before assuming that the readings and the effect are genuine reflection of root cause.
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