#1: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:33 am ---- Hello again,
Car was driving normally this morning, but after 3 miles brake pedal went spongy, less resistance and foot goes all the way down slowly (I never floored it completely though).
The braking power is ok and even (I can stomp on brakes with ABS kicking in), pumping the pedal with engine on brings it back firm as before, but goes spongy again soon after. No change in handbrake feeling/power.
Went another 7miles to mate's and did quick visual check: brake fluid is at its Max mark, no leaks around wheels whatsoever (did lots of pumping beforehand).
I think master cylinder seal is going - is it why the pedal turn so spongy all so sudden?
Is there any point in rebleeding brakes tonight, or should I bring it to garage instead immediately? Can a 206 HDi year 2000 be manually rebled btw ? (I got an EzBleed kit)
Did research on the Internet, here's a summary, given all my symptoms:
Quote::
1. The master cylinder is bypassing.
2. The callipers are bypassing.
You won't see a leak from the MC but you will from the callipers.
No fluid loss = internal seal in the master cylinder.
Fluid loss = leaking seal in one of the slave cylinders
Cheers for any comments to my highlighted questions above, otherwise this post could serve as a guide (and learning material), as there are so many different ways for brakes to fail.. Last edited by Sim on Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:40 am; edited 3 times in total
#2: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: Big_Rich180, Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:40 am ---- Out of curiosity what pads do you have on it?
#3: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:40 am ---- Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
#4: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:48 am ---- You need to carefully look at every point on the brake system circuit as even a tiny amount of leakage will do this.
It might take a while for it to visibly drip down or reduce the fluid level in the reservoir, or it could be master cylinder as you say.
Do not continue driving the vehicle.
#5: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:57 am ----
Big_Rich180 wrote:
Out of curiosity what pads do you have on it?
Mintex ones, no shims, since July 2012 - still good thick. This year started sticking to the caliper (squeeking) a bit on a hot day at low speeds.
macca1411 wrote:
Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
Ok, so good old pug 306 times of DIY bleeding are over
Thank you V9977, will drop it off at local garage tonight
#6: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: LeeThr, Location: North West WalesPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:19 am ----
macca1411 wrote:
Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
Only applies to the GTi 180.
#7: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: Big_Rich180, Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:29 am ----
LeeThr wrote:
macca1411 wrote:
Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
Only applies to the GTi 180.
Why, I thought it was to do with the ABS?
#8: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: LeeThr, Location: North West WalesPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:40 am ----
Big_Rich180 wrote:
LeeThr wrote:
macca1411 wrote:
Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
Only applies to the GTi 180.
Why, I thought it was to do with the ABS?
Only applies to the ABS system with ESP
Which the only 206 to have was the 180.
#9: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: Big_Rich180, Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:45 am ----
LeeThr wrote:
Big_Rich180 wrote:
LeeThr wrote:
macca1411 wrote:
Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
Only applies to the GTi 180.
Why, I thought it was to do with the ABS?
Only applies to the ABS system with ESP
Which the only 206 to have was the 180.
Ahh right.
#10: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: V9977, Location: Athens, GreecePosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:54 am ----
LeeThr wrote:
macca1411 wrote:
Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
Only applies to the GTi 180.
Sure?
#11: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:56 am ----
V9977 wrote:
LeeThr wrote:
macca1411 wrote:
Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
Only applies to the GTi 180.
Sure?
Where's the Haynes Manual when I need it? Ah.. left at home
#12: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: 14hdi, Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:00 am ---- On non esp you only need PP to bleed the system when the ABS pump has been removed.
When on Peugeot planet you can turn the ABS pump on and off while bleeding to remove air from the pump itself.
#13: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: DREWDEN, Location: huddersfieldPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:17 am ---- Just checked Haynes manual, it says if dificulty is experienced in bleeding the braking curcuit, on models with ABS, this may be due to air being trapped in the ABS hydraulic system.
If this is the case then it should be taken to Peugeot, so the system can be bled using special equipment.
#14: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: 14hdi, Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:02 am ---- Just need to plug it into pp2000 and follow the instructions on the screen. Iv done it before, it just tells you what wheel to do then puts the pump on a few times.
#15: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:42 am ---- It looks like my local garage won't take her until Thursday. Until then I'll need to investigate every inch of brake hoses myself tonight and tomorrow..
It's drizzle here in Bristol today - was hard to notice any obvious leaks due to wetness on the bottom of the car
#16: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:23 pm ----
LeeThr wrote:
Big_Rich180 wrote:
LeeThr wrote:
macca1411 wrote:
Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
Only applies to the GTi 180.
Why, I thought it was to do with the ABS?
Only applies to the ABS system with ESP
Which the only 206 to have was the 180.
Wrong. My 54 plate GTi has it.
#17: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:29 pm ----
LeeThr wrote:
Big_Rich180 wrote:
LeeThr wrote:
macca1411 wrote:
Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
Only applies to the GTi 180.
Why, I thought it was to do with the ABS?
Only applies to the ABS system with ESP
Which the only 206 to have was the 180.
Later GTI have it as standard, GTI HDI has it as standard.
I've seen it fitted to an ET3 powered 206 as the owner ticked the option box when they ordered the car new.
#18: Re: spongy brake pedal - all of a sudden Author: LeeThr, Location: North West WalesPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:33 pm ----
MrBSI wrote:
LeeThr wrote:
Big_Rich180 wrote:
LeeThr wrote:
macca1411 wrote:
Unless you have Peugeot Planet, you can't bleed the brakes.
Only applies to the GTi 180.
Why, I thought it was to do with the ABS?
Only applies to the ABS system with ESP
Which the only 206 to have was the 180.
Later GTI have it as standard, GTI HDI has it as standard.
I've seen it fitted to an ET3 powered 206 as the owner ticked the option box when they ordered the car new.
All those 90 horses must have been hard to tame
#19: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: eddie206, Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:55 pm ---- I am well aware that brake fluid is a degrading liquid,so over time if its exposed to air it will lose its non compressiive qualities and will need replacing..
But is this fact a possible cause of this guys problems because if there's no leaks to be found maybe a full brake fluid change is needed here?
Does anyone have any experience of this brake fluids main properties loss??i suppose leaving the cap off for long enough can cause this?
#20: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:38 am ---- I would agree on brake fluid having air, or being old altogether, so bleeding brakes or replacing the whole fluid is [somewhere down] on my TODO list.
But I'm questioning why the brake pedal went all spongy so sudden -- from one moment to the other.
Other forum (Toyota 4x4s) said:
Quote::
Check the shoes on the rear, you get pedal pressure from the rear.
My local garage suspects the whole brake pedal fitting frame (the lever) might be snapped/bending down
If not that, then I told them to look into rear shoes, too
Master cylinder seal loose is not likely, because the car brakes just as good as before
We keep fighting
#21: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:54 am ---- Wrote some rubbish myself (together with local garage suggestions):
sledge wrote:
My local garage suspects the whole brake pedal fitting frame (the lever) might be snapped/bending down
Wrong, because pedal would feel spongy even with engine off. Or instead, when you pump the pedal a bit, it now becomes hard for couple of next presses
sledge wrote:
Master cylinder seal loose is not likely, because the car brakes just as good as before
Wrong, because a seal-leaking M/C would still generate same amount of brake pressure efficiency, it's just that the brake pedal would travel to the ground as you stomp on brakes -- exactly my behaviour! (as opposed to staying firm hard, or travelling minimally - just checked on 307 -- it -does- travel, but you barely realise, unless firmly braking for 5 or more seconds)
On a Mercedes though, travel to the ground is normal, the travel should be on every car I think (the brake fluid -is- circulating, when constant hard pressure is applied to the pedal, just at different rates for different cars; and should not feel beyond zone of comfort. Mercedes normal travel speed apparently is on the border of comfort )
#22: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:05 am ----
eddie206 wrote:
I am well aware that brake fluid is a degrading liquid,so over time if its exposed to air it will lose its non compressiive qualities and will need replacing..
But is this fact a possible cause of this guys problems because if there's no leaks to be found maybe a full brake fluid change is needed here?
Does anyone have any experience of this brake fluids main properties loss??i suppose leaving the cap off for long enough can cause this?
So can this statement be true: "when a water content in brake fluid gets higher than a certain amount, the pedal firmness is lost from one mile to another, i.e. exponentially and not gradually" ?
#24: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:21 am ----
So can this statement be true: "when a water content in brake fluid gets higher than a certain amount, the pedal firmness is lost from one mile to another, i.e. exponentially and not gradually" ?
On this quote yes
Quote::
This ‘soaked up’ business is important. The brake fluid draws in the moisture and is absorbed into the fluid. As the fluid absorbs the moisture it thickens and its ability to withstand heat and corrosion is reduced. The result is a significant drop in the temperature at which the fluid boils so after a period of heavy braking, the fluid could boil in the calipers. Hydraulics work on the principle that you cannot compress a liquid so the pressure created is used to force the pads against the discs or the shoes against the drums. However, if the water in the fluid boils you can compress a vapour (the steam produced) and this will greatly increase the distance the pedal will have to travel to apply the brakes.
If your brakes are cold like at the end of a motorway, then there will be very little water vapour, but then you go onto an A road with lights and roundabouts and your brakes are used more which then increases the temp and turns the water into vapour which compresses.
#25: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:26 am ----
macca1411 wrote:
If your brakes are cold like at the end of a motorway, then there will be very little water vapour, but then you go onto an A road with lights and roundabouts and your brakes are used more which then increases the temp and turns the water into vapour which compresses.
Thanks macca, my question is about my case: brake pedal behaviour changes over long-term: I had been driving this car with firm brake pedal for 18 months, and now it became soft, regardless the road.
So if that holds for brake fluid to deteriorate over time, but expose noticeable symptoms in a day, then car just needs bleeding or replace the whole brake fluid (in turn dismissing M/C, rear shoe, etc suspects)
#26: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:40 am ---- I'd start with a fluid change and work from there. It's worth checking over all the brake components at the same time. Drums off, adjust the shoes so you can just pass the drums over them. Make sure the auto adjusters are working. Check along all the pipes and connections for signs of a leak, maybe use tracing spray. Make sure the compensator valve (if fitted) is working and not seized. Quite a few things to look at, but with brakes, might as well do everything properly.
#27: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bl Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:29 am ---- Many thanks macca! a great concise tutorial
I tried removing drums myself, but couldn't undo the rear hub nut. I even snapped the nut's edge when I tried to bend it out from the cut-out hole in the axle (that's why they need to be replaced upon undoing anyhow according to Haynes).
So I leave it for the garage to inspect this weekend. I also bought them these (ok quality? lol those were my last words ): www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330831879159
For the spongy brake pedal senior mechanic suspects brake servo malfunctioning (working too well!?) But I insisted they remove drums and do thorough inspection (they didn't have time to remove them last week).
Could this be servo?..
#28: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:49 am ---- A leaking master cylinder seal, in theory, shouldn't pump up as your does. However, I have seen them do that and it is what I suspect as your current root problem.
Brake fluid should be changed every couple of years but frequency depends on the type of fluid in the system. It is unusual for water in your fluid to give a sudden change in brake degradation (you describe it happening overnight) - it is usually a gradual loss over many months. However, if the fluid hasn't been changed for a few years then do that anyway.
The rear stub axle nut is (should be) torqued to 200NM or 148ft.lb which is tight but not too bad. To release the area that the nut is staked I use an old screwdriver and tap it between the staked portion of the nut and the stub. I must admit I have a very long bar that means ALL nuts are easy to release. You must fit new nuts when reassembling everything but they are cheap enough from either Peugeot or must motor factors and tighten the nut with a torque wrench not guess work.
Summary: if you are certain you don't have a leak then my bet is master cylinder seal and change the fluid if it is old.
#29: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:02 am ---- Apparently, replaced brake fluid fixed all nuisances. So if it goes spongy from one corner to another - replacing fluid is a good thing to do (especially when it's >1.5 years old)
Cheers all!
#30: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: DREWDEN, Location: huddersfieldPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:30 am ---- Just out of curiousity, how did you bleed the brakes.
Garage peugeot planet.
Or manually the old fashioned way.
#31: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:31 am ---- Local garage did that. Given my HDI (and I assume you read up this thread), they probably needed to use some extra equipment (PP etc)
I'll ask them out of same curiosity
#32: Re: suddenly spongy brake pedal (+which pugs can be brake bled) Author: DREWDEN, Location: huddersfieldPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:36 am ---- Cheers, could be useful for other people.
Including myself.
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