#1: bent subframe? (merged with understeer/oversteer thread) Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:24 am ---- Hello,
Pretty much as it says. Car becomes really unstable even in non-sharp corners, enough if I keep pumping the accelerator, it swirls the car into wobbliness
Drives sharp fine when driving/pulling straight forwards.
When the car is raised with wheel off, you can see a tear(?) gap in N/S lower arm's rear bush rubber.
Just took the picture when the car is parked on all 4s now:
I can get a better quality picture, and raise car up in the evening.
Lower arms are not of top-notch quality, but they were fitted two months ago!... So could this gap be causing the problem?
Cheers,
#2: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: PugJH, Location: NorthantsPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:43 am ---- Is it when cornering both ways?
#3: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:43 am ----
PugJH wrote:
Is it when cornering both ways?
Yes
...power steering?.. :}
#4: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:58 am ---- More info:
Two months ago got new lower arms fitted, did not do alignment (the reason being handling of the car improved significantly after lower arms replace so I though everything's fine...)
Until last Saturday the tyres got eaten to nearly slick, so hadn't been driving the car rigorously. Minimal wobbliness was felt nevertheless, and general handling of the car felt horrible, due to tracking way out. But I don't know if this exact problem now is caused by the following works:
On Saturday did 4 wheel alignment (left 6.5mm and right 2.5mm toe out!! that explains why my tyres became slicks in months)
Then same day put on all brand new PACE tyres 195/55/R15
The old 185/65/R15 went straight to the bin
Tyre place said with new tyres fitted, wheel tracking got 2 degrees out, so they did 2wheel alignment
Today took on my normal commute route, car grips fine due to new tyres, but really wobbly when cornering, higher speeds even when not spirited driving
#5: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: PugJH, Location: NorthantsPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:21 am ---- I had an issue when cornering before, say I was going off the m1 on a tight bend it would yank me back the opposite way, I had both front wishbones replaced, which fixed the issue, but I believe the full issue is that my subframe is bent/twisted so the wishbones will most likely fail again.
Check this out 1st
#6: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:25 am ---- Ok thanks. Sometimes (rarely) it feels like my back is yanking too, as if the rear axle also could steer lol... That happens also when I'm about to straighten out from the corner.
#7: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: PugJH, Location: NorthantsPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:35 am ---- Sounds like what I had, the garage couldn't see anything until I told him to take it out for a driver where a nice corner was, he said it scared the s**t out of him when it yanked him back.
They lifted the car up, had no play on the wheel, turned the wheels one way and it had a lot of play.
#8: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:35 am ---- The split could be letting the arm move more than it should.
Could be the rear axles bushes are going and you've got movement there too.
#9: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: PugJH, Location: NorthantsPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:45 am ---- I can't see the tear in the picture. But as said check all the rubbers. Engine mounts as well
#10: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:51 am ---- Big question mark on subframe now. Brief history why:
9 months ago 2nd-hand subframe fitted (due to snapped gearlink)
6 months ago N/S lower arm replaced due to worn bush (can't remember whether front or rear bush mount)
2 months ago both lower arms replaced (due to another problem), and I think the bush of that 4month old N/S lower arm was pretty worn already
Last Saturday noticed a split in N/S bush and intensified wobbling when cornering under power
So if it's the replaced subframe since 9 months been eating the N/S wishbones bushes, is it worth looking for warps? If so, how? Visually it looks good Last edited by Sim on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:17 am; edited 2 times in total
#11: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: peugeotgti, Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:46 pm ---- Get it onto a jig to check if its bent or whatever...failing that get a four wheel allignment and see if that throws up anything strange.
to be honest it sounds like its been bashed and fixed up so it might be worth getting a new cheap straight car and fit any mods onto the new car...you could pick one up for £500 if you can afford it...at least you wont have to keep spending on tyres.susspension.wishbones.bushes etc.etc.
#12: Re: oversteer/understeer when accelerating in small corners Author: PugJH, Location: NorthantsPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:37 pm ---- I looked at getting another sub frame. But can only get second hand now. Couldn't see anything on service box. better the devil you know on this one, if I got a second hand one I would want to look at the car it was coming from.
#13: bent subframe? Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:30 pm ---- Could anyone please post the pictures of their (ideally HDi 2.0) subframe, so I could compare?
I suspect to have a bent subframe fitted. The N/S looks like this (notice the gap between the two metal lips -- should it be there??):
Meanwhile O/S looks ok:
Many thanks.. If it should not be like this, then the bent subframe has eaten a couple of N/S wishbones (this one got ripped in two months):
Last edited by Sim on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:50 am; edited 1 time in total
#14: Re: bent subframe? Author: Ryry238, Location: Doncaster South YorkshirePosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:10 pm ---- ill check mine for your tomorrow, there's got to be a problem somewhere
#15: Re: bent subframe? Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:20 pm ---- Cheers buddy!
#16: Re: bent subframe? Author: Addaz, Location: SuffolkPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:51 am ---- Subframe looks fine but your bottom arms are f****d
#17: Re: bent subframe? Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:10 am ---- Will get a clearer picture of n/s subframe edge.
These gone lower arms been replaced with new ones yesterday.
Ultimately, im after a reason why lower arm bush got ripped in only two months.
Two versions so far:
I was driving with n/s 6.5 and o/s 2.5mm toe out for last 1.5months
or
Bent subframe somewhere
Done 4wheel tracking week ago, will do again with new tyres (195/55/15 instead of old 185/65/15) and new wishbones, to eliminate suspects..
Waiting somebody to picture their subframe
#18: Re: bent subframe? Author: Edward, Location: In the garagePosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:31 am ---- That bush looks like it's pulled out of the wishbone.
#19: Re: bent subframe? Author: Steve206, Location: UKPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:37 am ---- Look like the wrOng wishbones, shouldn't they have a metal outer bush?
#20: Re: bent subframe? Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:48 am ----
Steve206 wrote:
Look like the wrOng wishbones, shouldn't they have a metal outer bush?
Just updated pictures of subframe sides with better quality ones. See this post.
#21: Re: bent subframe? (merged with understeer/oversteer thread) Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:34 am ---- 4-wheel alignment done, drives mint! Can do national speed limit on curves
Lee from FCM wheel alignment (best man I know) said subframe would need to have a play to destroy a bush so fast.
The differing gap between metal lips on the sides does not have enough influence in geometry he said.
So let's give a month and see how the new bush is doing.
If it survives, time for poly bushes afterwards!
#22: Re: bent subframe? (merged with understeer/oversteer thread) Author: RichardEke, Location: DoncasterPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:43 pm ---- I've just replaced the lower arm on mine, the bushes were split like that but once its jacked up the problem looks alot worse.
This thread has made me think i should get a wheel alignment now though:)
Just out of interest, those subframe bolt, are they in the right way up? I'm just curious as mine were the other way up with the nut at the bottom.
Regards, Richard.
#23: Re: bent subframe? (merged with understeer/oversteer thread) Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:13 pm ---- It always looks lot worse when jacked up. Showed the dreaded bone to wheel aligner guy today, the split is clearly visible even when removed.
He claimed alignment cannot do such damage. So if my subframe is fine, I'll blame the gsfcarparts.com for faulty bush rubber, and demand refund under warranty.
No idea abou difference in bolt's direction..
Thanks all for the pointers!!
#24: Re: bent subframe? (merged with understeer/oversteer thread) Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:04 am ---- Bolts should always (well almost always) be fitted with nut at the bottom. Lots of mechanics don't because they are a bit fiddly to get in and sometimes easier to fit upside down. However, if the nut comes undone the the bolt will quickly fall out. That is why the nut should be on the bottom.
The nuts are not likely to come undone but if the mechanic was so lazy he put them in the wrong way how confident are you that he put the correct torque on the nuts. For you own safety put them in the right way.
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I can get a better quality picture, and raise car up in the evening.
(the reason being handling of the car improved significantly after lower arms replace so I though everything's fine...)
