#1: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: tekzwob, Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:47 pm ---- Hi there,
I am trying to diagnose why a Peugeot 206 gti - 1999 non perplexed will not start.
To test spark I would normally take a plug out, connect it to the HT lead and ground it by connecting a jumper cable to the threads of the spark plug and the other end of the cables to a ground like the engine block.
With this 206 it has a coil on rail system coilpack, and although I had tried the same method, the spark plugs do not 'click' into the coil on rail boots. I got a friend to hold the plug up via the jumper cable insulated handle and apply downward pressure in an attempt to push it into the coilpack which was upside down resting on the engine. I cranked but no spark.
I am not convinced this is an adequate test to rule out no spark with this coil pack, how do you peugeot 206 gti owners do it?
Quick edit with side question: How would I verify or not if the imobiliser is incorrectly stopping the engine to start? Would there be lack of voltage or any other tell tale signs?
#2: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: Addaz, Location: SuffolkPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:02 pm ---- Have you checked for faults? As normally a coil failure would bring it up a misfire code or something along them lines.
Are you getting an RPM signal in parameters on a scanner?
You can check to see if the immbolisation is working but putting it on a scanner to confirm the ECU is unlocking when the ignition is turned on.
Common faults off the top of my head for non start:
- Crank sensor failed/damaged
- Cam sensor (i think they still run without, but i cannot confirm)
- Coil pack (uncommon to fully stop it starting)
- Key failure
- Bsi water ingress (if it has one)
#3: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: tekzwob, Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:31 pm ---- The codes were missfire codes, although there is evidence more is going on than that, possibly something up with the fueling system.
Codes were pulled at pug dealership, my personal obd2 system connects but times out when asking for codes.
Not sure what BSI is?
I have two keys, cranks but doesn't start with either of them.
I am eager to find out how you would test for spark outside of engine as the missfire codes do support the possiblity of the coilpack not working, even though it did initially start with easy start). I need to test for spark.
#4: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:53 am ---- It won't be ODB2 ... it's a peugeot diag system and if 1999 car is best with pp2000 and lexia-3 cables although some more expensive code readers may work ok.
#5: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: tekzwob, Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:06 am ---- Ok, this seems to be veering off from matters.
My main question is how do I test for spark outside the engine with these coil on rail systems, surely someone on here has had to check for spark at some point?
#6: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: macca1411, Location: Westhoughton, LancashirePosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:33 am ---- Is this related to your other two threads?
Might be easier to have them merged into one, then people can see the full back ground to the original problem and what the AA and dealer have already said.
#7: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: tekzwob, Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:52 am ---- It is yes but I think a seperate thread would lead to less answering bias. Also would make it easier for anyone else with the same question.
#8: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:15 pm ---- I think in this day and age the issue is resolved by swapping out the coilpack and seeing if that works. If swapped with a known working coilpack you eliminate that part. But you still have not eliminated the feed to the coil pack .. the small connector on the end.
Apart from making up some sort of adaptor to connect the plugs to the coilpack and have them adequately earthed, I don't think you can. Way back we never tested the plug but tested the HT lead to the plug by inserting a clear plastic part that showed the spark inside jumping from the HT lead end to the top of the plug. The plug remained in the engine. (And your friend is brave ... I've felt the kick from an HT lead and it isn't pleasant!)
My comments about ODB2 were not meant to take this off-topic, but meant to show that you may not have a diag system that is capable of connecting to the peugeot ... not all can .. so the fact you can't read anything maybe down to that incompatibility. You've already had the codes read which has suggested a misfire .. so I'd start with the coilpack.
Let's start again ....
1) Has the engine EVER started and run?
2) Did you notice any misfire after running it for any period of time or did it stop suddenly?
3) Do you know if the keys MATCH the car? The immobiliser chip in the key is coded to the BSI unit. If not the immobiliser will not switch off and kill the ability to start the engine ...
#9: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: tekzwob, Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:33 pm ---- Good points you raised there and after some extensive googling (away from home so didnt read your response) I have come to the conclusion that without buying expensive equipment, testing coil on plug coilpacks is a near impossible task to do effectively.
So I guess I'll be changing the coil pack, but I'll try changing the sparks first. I have read that peugeot coil packs can take out the spark plugs and sometimes the ecu when they fry, I hope that isn't the case.
The keys are original keys, both of them and have worked flawlessly for 9 years.
I would say yes to the missfire, on the 2 or 3 occasions I have driven it in the last 6 months the idle has jumped around and I could hear light pops on occasion from I suspect the exhaust, although power didn't seem to be effected.
One thing to note is that it died when I was driving it, which is a rarity, and I do tend to push cars a bit, high acceleration, I was stonking it up a hill when it cut out.
I purchased a multimeter, and have done a crash course in how to use it. I could use a little guide in how to test for ohms on the coilpack, might that be a way of seeing if it's working? That goes for the crank position sensor too and anything else relating to ignition.
I have also read that coil packs and injectors have a tendency to fail on these cars. I have cranked the engine and listened to the injectors, I can't seem to hear any pulses but then again I've never done this before either. :/
The car Has started, apparently... the RAC guy sprayed easy start into the air intake and apparently it started briefly, I have sinced tried this once I got it home and it did not start. I also tried a bit of fuel in the throttle body, no start either.
So currently the case is still open wide. It seems the more I read about this car the more potential problems it could be.
I bought a cheap compression tester online, I measured compression in the far left cylinder, cylinder 4 I suspect? There was 100% loss, no pressure, the needle didn't even flicker, I will test the rest of the cylinders tomorrow, if there is loss on all cylinders I will send the tester back as I suspect it may be faulty (there are signs it has already been opened and used and was sent back to seller then sold to me as new). I may do some wet tests also, squirt a few drops of oil in cylinder and measure compression as far as I have read?
I checked all the fuses today and they are all ok, no idea about the relay switch type things though.
I would like to check the teeth on the timing belt as one of the belts was sqeaking when starting for a good 6 months before this happened, it would stop after getting warmed up apparently.
#10: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:56 am ---- Sudden loss like this isn't likely to be the plugs ... unless the coil pack completely failed ... which would be odd. You might expect one or two plugs to go in which case the engine runs but misfired badly and you are down on power.
Almost sounds like the immobiliser has cut in ... can't explain why.
Or, the cambelt has failed ... which would explain the 100% of compression on the cylinder (let's assume the tester is working). These are interference fit engines so when the belt goes the vales stay in the same place meeting the pistons coming the other way at high speed ... it doesn't take much to bend the valves meaning the compression is done (I know from experience on an Alfa TS engine where the belt failed on starting!) I you were "stonking" up a hill, you may not have heard anything ... like metal on metal? Do you know when the belts were lasted changed? They don't last forever ... 80K miles or 8 years I think ... so yours should have been replaced in 2007 at the latest.
Timing belts don't squeak .. the auxiliary belt can. Other squeaks from that area will be the tensioners and idler wheels. You can try and stop that with a well aimed squirt of lubricant.
I think you are starting to look at stripping a few things starting with the cam belt covers and checking the condition of that. Or take off the top one and get someone to watch while you turn the engine over. It the belt is running fully (mark it with tippex so you can see it rotates the whole way), you should be able to eliminate that catastrophe. If the mark stays put or disappears and comes back ... head off!
#11: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: Edward, Location: In the garagePosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:08 am ---- Can you hear the fuel pump prime when you switch on the ignition?
#12: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: omega, Location: nottinghamPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:20 am ---- if you near notts you can borrow my coil pack
#13: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: tekzwob, Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:02 am ---- Ok I went out in the middle of the night last night with my trusty multimeter and my not so trusty girlfriend :P.
Here are the stats (bare in mind im using a £2.50 multimeter from eBay so are guidelines really):
Measured 20v scale direct current and grounded to the engine apart from when I tested the battery.
Battery voltage was around 12.25v.
the connector for the coil pack had 3 pins, 1 of which registered 0, 1 registered really low, and the third pin registered with the highest reading read 0.7. I figured this was supposed to be near 12v so didn't do the firing test. I tested this multiple times and tried grounding to the battery instead but same result.
I measured a few other things for reference:
There is a cylindrical device behind and near the coilpack, I think it's the egr, it looks like it is fixed to the back right of the engine, is it right behind the oil breather engine connector. It appears to feed off of the same harness as the coilpack or may provide power to the coilpack harness, this also read around 0.7.
A connector going to the throttle body measured around 12v.
I measured 2 injector connectors, 2 volts seem to be going to these, 2 volts per injector. While I was there I turned off the car and removed the fuel line at the injector rail and placed it in a bucket and then put the key back in and turned to acc to prime the fuel system, it is definitely delivering fuel up to the injector rail as pressurised fuel squirted out.
I'm thinking now that maybe a problem with the feed to that wiring harness or whatever powers the coilpack. Or perhaps the ecu disables the voltage on the ignition until cranked? I'm going to try the same test again while cranking and see if it achieves 12v. I still am unsure of how to definitively tell if the immobiliser is on?
One point to add which may be suggestive is that the harness I talked about that the coilpack feeds from goes down the side of the engine, directly under where the oil breather is (which is broken). This harness is quite caked in oil and so is everything else under there. This is incidentally the same harness that the cylindrical object is powered from, whether its part of the same circuit I don't know but they both have very similar readings.
I do not know if the belts ever been changed, the car has done 78k miles.
I should check the timing belt, it just looks like such a lot of work at the moment. I'm dubious there is 100 compression loss, I can feel compression when I crank the engine if you know what I mean.
Thanks for the offer Omega but I live miles away in Kent. Last edited by tekzwob on Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:11 am; edited 2 times in total
#14: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpac Author: tekzwob, Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:04 am ----
Not my engine bay but the green circle is the cylindrical object and the red circled area is where oil spillage is and where the harnesses drop down.
#15: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: tekzwob, Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:12 pm ---- Today I checked all the fuses again, they were all good. I pulled the relays and had a look at them in the engine fuse box, I tried to open them but couldn't. Not quite sure what to do with them to be honest. Had the car open so thought I'd try my cheap ebay compression tester again, it's made by hilka and cost £14.
It's supposed to have a 18mm and 16mm thread adaptor but the extension tube is actually a 16mm as well so I left off the adaptors and pulled one plug at a time and did the test. I got some odd numbers which were 50, 75, 75, 90 or something like that. I went and googled and found out supposed to do the test with all the plugs pulled and the throttle open in flood mode. So I pulled all the plugs, and I disconnected fuse 26 which is for fuel pump, ignition module, fuel injectors, and something else I cant remember.
Test came out like this:
left cylinder (facing the engine) = 75
next cylinder = 100
next cylinder = 75
right cylinder = around 55/60
I didn't do any wet compression testing as I haven't got any engine oil at the moment.
I cranked for around 6-8 cycles on each cylinder, some of the cylinder were still going up although very slowly but thought if I kept cranking this wouldn't be useful.
In my limited knowledge these seem very low. I have read of cylinder wash affecting these values and this engine has been cranked a crap load of times since it broke down so is a possibility I think. But would this account for such low numbers? I could smell petrol when cranking while doing the tests, and like I mentioned before the oil has a petrol smell to it which I can smell now.
Besides the voiltage problem, these numbers are pretty disturbing as I have seen engines should reach 150 minimum?
#16: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:50 pm ---- Compression values are very low - assuming the gauge is accurate - but I have seen cars start and run with numbers this low and it should at least still fire.
These low numbers may show an engine in poor (very poor) condition but it does not show a destroyed cambelt nor the reason for failing to start.
Though I guess it is possible that the cambelt has jumped a tooth or two and that is the problem. Personally, while I have heard people reporting belts jumping a tooth I have never ever witnessed it and doubt that it can happen without destroying an engine.
You have an engine in very poor condition but I think you still have problems elsewhere. I would do a wet test and see what happens to the compression figure. if there isn't any change then you have valve or head gasket problems and if it improves it is probably time to scrap the car!
#17: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: tekzwob, Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:07 pm ---- Noted: I will do a wet test tomorrow.
As for the spark, any idea on why the injectors, ecg and coilpack connectors are getting such low voltage?
#18: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:55 pm ---- I would not trust an inexperienced user of a multimeter. I am trained in electronics and you would be amazed at just what spurious readings you can get and false ideas from using a meter.
I don't know enough about how the electronics should work to know what is wrong. it could be that the voltage only goes high when the engine is actually cranking or firing. It could be that the belt has jumped a tooth or two (though I have already stated my opinion on this) and that the management system has spotted that the cam and crank sensor are no longer working in time together and refusing to allow the car to start by cutting the voltage.
The only way to know if the readings are right or wrong is a side by side test with a known working car. Bear in mind that setting the meter wrong for a reading could then trash the working car!!!
#19: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: tekzwob, Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:39 pm ---- I set the Multimeter to the 20v range as the electrics are based off of the 12v battery, I googled extensively and have a pretty good idea of how to use multimeters now, enough for reading voltages, resistance and continuity for this purpose, but by no means an expert. I haven't tested load/amps but I don't need to for these basic diagnostic tests.
I will try the voltage test while cranking the car, and see if it pulses.
If the timing went on the car by a tooth, lets say it slipped while driving up the hill, wouldn't the engine be toast anyway because it's an interference engine and would explain the low compression numbers.
The battery is outputting 12v as tested at the battery and the throttle body and a few others places. Everything connected to the wiring harness that is soaked in oil, (the injectors, the coilpack, the egr) have low values. Yes these are ignition based and could be caused by either the ECU, the immobilser, or faulty relays, cables in the circuit or faulty ground, or even faulty fuse box. Or it could indeed be correct voltages until cranked. These are reasons I am seeking advise from the Peugeot community as they are quite specific to the make and model of car. I had read that there is a class action lawsuit concerning the ECUs and other circuitry of the ignition cutting out and blowing stuff on 206's, so there is reason to believe this could be a weak point of the car.
Regardless of the compression (I will borrow another verified working compression tester later), for the mean time I think it's worthwhile pursuing the low voltage reasons and if they are correct (unlikely based on other cars) or incorrect (likely as the coilpack isn't firing, the relays don't seem to be clicking and the injectors don't appear to be firing, and the EML fault codes were missfire based).
Up till now the eletrical reading need to be investigated, which I am seeking help coordinating my effors. I have the 5 pin relay switches from the engine fuse box out of the car and will get some aligator clips to connect to the battery to test them. I am planning to connect jump leads to the battery while it's still in the car, and connect an aligator clip from the end of the jump leads to the eletrical connectors on the relays and test if they switch, if there is anything wrong with this method or some safety problems or a better way to do it please advise me.
If the relays are working (the fuses have been checked) then I guess the next thing to test would be the ECU, and wires in that circuit, or perhaps the ground (which is probably caked in oil as it looks to be underneath the harness in question connected to the engine or chassis. Obviously, I will need guidance on this as quite frankly im a not a mechanic.
Or, conversely, if you feel another route to take in investigating the voltage issues would be better, then please advise. But obviously I cannot get another Peugeot 206 GTi or any other similar car to compare to, and also, I cannot move the car.
First things first, crank car and test for ignition voltage pulses from the coilpack connector to the coilpack, and then test relays using above method. I suspect the relays are fine and the coilpack is not receiving voltage, then I guess it's a case of the next thing along the circuit, whether that be egr (if it controls current to the coilpack), or the wires themselves or any relays on those wires to the fuse box or ECU?
Lots of questions and thoughts and I do appreciate your help. I don't want to scrap this little Peugeot :(. Last edited by tekzwob on Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
#20: Re: Checking spark outside of engine on coil on rail coilpack Author: tekzwob, Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:41 pm ---- Just though I'd add that there are ways to test the crank and cam shaft sensors with a multimeter, I don't actually know where they are on the car or how to test them, this is another thing I want to test which I think should be eliminated to help with the general diagnoses.
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