#1: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: declfc, Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:43 pm ---- OK so I have a 206 HDi Gti, problem free until last week.
I have been reading loads of posts on here and I must admit its been brilliant. Loads of great information......but
There is loads of talk of removing the ERG valve, but I cant find out why or what this will do, but it seems everyone has done it.
Same with the FAP.....Now im not even sure what the FAP is?
And then there is the DPF, which I am currently investigating on my pug, but it seems its beyond regeneration. Im looking at new ones at around £200 (not fitted) but also looking at the possibility of removing completely and remapping. Loads of threads on here about that....... but cost wise its cheaper to just replace the DPF with a new one?
Are there some guides anywhere on how to replace/remove the DPF and ERG valve. I cant find them in the HOW too section.
Also is there anything else that is common place to modify on these engines that I should do whilst im at it! (apart from replacing it with the 2.0HDi engine)
Great forum, thanks for looking.
#2: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: Addaz, Location: SuffolkPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:00 pm ---- Egr = exhaust gas recirculation, aids filling of the cylinder by filling it with already used exhaust gas. This aids regeneration and making the engine more efficient by filling the cylinder 100 percent every stroke. Cons are that it uses gas that doesnt do any aid to the explosion inside that cylinder and heats the aircharge in that cylinder
DPF = Diesel particulate filter aka FAP filter, collects soot the engine produces to comply with regulations. Pros, you save the little polar bear from chocking to death, cons very restrictive and can lead to turbo failure if the pressure is too much from lack of maintainence
#3: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: declfc, Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:29 pm ---- Ah so the FAP is the same thing as the DPF, thanks.
#4: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: 206HdiGti, Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:01 am ----
declfc wrote:
OK so I have a 206 HDi Gti, problem free until last week.
I have been reading loads of posts on here and I must admit its been brilliant. Loads of great information......but
There is loads of talk of removing the ERG valve, but I cant find out why or what this will do, but it seems everyone has done it.
Same with the FAP.....Now im not even sure what the FAP is?
And then there is the DPF, which I am currently investigating on my pug, but it seems its beyond regeneration. Im looking at new ones at around £200 (not fitted) but also looking at the possibility of removing completely and remapping. Loads of threads on here about that....... but cost wise its cheaper to just replace the DPF with a new one?
Are there some guides anywhere on how to replace/remove the DPF and ERG valve. I cant find them in the HOW too section.
Also is there anything else that is common place to modify on these engines that I should do whilst im at it! (apart from replacing it with the 2.0HDi engine)
Great forum, thanks for looking.
Hi,
I had my DPF removed and the software updated for £450 - the diesel additive message will still come on if the tank under the car gets low, but you can refill this with Ad-Blue or diesel and have the counter reset.
It is certainly not cheaper buying a new DPF as I was quoted £1200 plus fitting plus VAT from Peugeot and they are only meant to last around 80k miles, which for the money is appalling. The regen costs around £800 from Peugeot. I investigated many avenues before I had mine removed.
I haven't bothered removing my EGR as i've no reason to do anything with it.
I have read that if you get a remap which adds HP it can mess up the DMF which is very costly experience. I had my DMF done for £700 including parts but at the same time whilst most of the car was apart, we drilled out the CAT which has made the flow a lot better.
I would not advise removing the DPF yourself as there are toxic gases involved and a lot of dust- inhaling this wouldn't do you any good.
Mods? - remove the cat, otherwise buy a petrol RWD and have fun with that instead.
#5: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:35 am ---- The one good think about PSA Peugeot / Citroen is they class the DFP & Eloy's fluid as serviceable items so you know sooner or later it's gonna cost you.
Nearly all other car manufacturers with there DPF systems make no mention of servicing / replacing DPF items, they just let the customer get a wallet emptying bill instead.
Don't get this bother on certain diesel forklifts with DPF's, when the warning shows up on dash you just plug the truck in to the mains & leave it overnight to burn the soot of the filter.
#6: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: declfc, Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:06 pm ---- Having done some research I've found its now illegal to have the DPF removed, and I cant find any local companies that are willing to do it.
£1200 to change a DPF?????
#7: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: declfc, Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:08 pm ---- Surely two exhaust clips and re-connecting some sensors cant be that hard. I was gonna have a go my self.
Does anyone know of a "How to" thread for doing this??
#8: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: pro_steve, Location: BristolPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:25 pm ---- You shouldn't have any future errors if you've had the Dpf removed properly, you don't need to top up the additive tank because this system will be redundant.
I charge 250 for the complete Dpf removal software programing and a Remap to 140 bhp. As far as I'm aware I'm the only company who can do this properly without any future fault codes and without risk of damaging your turbo.
#9: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: 206HdiGti, Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:07 pm ---- doing it yourself is not a good idea. You have to take quite a few bits off to get to it as well.
I said £1200 from peugeot not the cheap crap you found on ebay
#10: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: declfc, Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:45 pm ---- Pro_Steve just PM'd you.
#11: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: 206HdiGti, Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:16 am ----
pro_steve wrote:
You shouldn't have any future errors if you've had the Dpf removed properly, you don't need to top up the additive tank because this system will be redundant.
I charge 250 for the complete Dpf removal software programing and a Remap to 140 bhp. As far as I'm aware I'm the only company who can do this properly without any future fault codes and without risk of damaging your turbo.
I was told the software map doesn't eliminate the counter on the additive tank under the car. But it's only a tenner to fix that. I was a bit stuck at the time and there was no one else in my area to do it. Has been great since though, you guys are diamonds tho
#12: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: pro_steve, Location: BristolPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:34 am ---- It's just knowing how to get rid of it, I delete the fault codes for the additive tank and then you can unplug it so it doesn't keep buzzing. Next I change the parameters of DPF regeneration so the ECU will never try to get in to regen, then I delete the DPF function, delete the temperature sensor and also the differential pressure sensor. This is the only way to stop it going in to limp mode in the future.
A lot of people delete every single fault code out of the ECU, then the car goes in to limp mode but doesn't show any faults. So to compensate they change the power when the car is in limp mode, only problem is the turbo will fail because they've deleted the fault code which shows that it is over boosting.
For these you need to completely re-write the turbo control parameters to prevent it from boosting too high after removing the massive blockage from the exhaust which was the DPF and cat. Only one way to do it, and that's the right way.
#13: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: 206HdiGti, Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:29 am ---- I didn't know you could unplug it.
#14: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: pro_steve, Location: BristolPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:33 pm ---- Yes it's under the tin shield by the fuel tank. Obviously this only works if your map has been done properly to remove the additive tank.
#15: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:50 am ---- DPF filter is fitted to reduce soot particles that cause many chest infections and asthma. This catches these particles and the clever software spots when you are probably driving ion the countryside and burns off the particles in areas of less dense population.
EGR is fitted to reduce the burn temperature and thereby reduce NOx in the exhaust.
Both particulates ands Nitrous oxide are nasty by products from burning diesel.
If you are happy dump particulates in town and increase NOx then go ahead. I write this so that you are informed not to stop you doing it. I have remapped every diesel I have driven!
#16: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: pro_steve, Location: BristolPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:18 am ---- That's true, but driving around with a clogged DPF or an EGR that is jammed open will be 10x worse for the environment. Once these systems go wrong they do more harm than they did good for the short period of time they were functioning correctly, have you ever seen a car running with the EGR stuck open?
#17: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: 206HdiGti, Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:21 am ---- so it's okay to design a system that lasts 80k and then charge the customer an absolute fortune for regenning or replacing completely?
I work for a chemical manufacturer where we actually produce Nox so the amount i'm emitting really doesn't bother me.
#18: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: badj, Location: WiltshirePosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:38 am ----
206HdiGti wrote:
so it's okay to design a system that lasts 80k and then charge the customer an absolute fortune for regenning or replacing completely?
I work for a chemical manufacturer where we actually produce Nox so the amount i'm emitting really doesn't bother me.
the EGR tends to increase the NOx levels, with the DPF capturing these.
If you're going to do one, do both. EGRs, despite popular 'intrnetz' myth, do not save your turbo, breed unicorns, or add any performance enhancement other than to reduce human-harming emissions.
Newer vehicles pretty much have them forced on for the life of the vehicle, and there's the potential for MOT tests to have checks other than visual and smoke to identify if they are working correctly.
I'm not aware of any HGV or plant vehicles with DPFs, so it's an odd tactic to focus on the passenger car, but I believe the target cause, demanded by EU and so on, is to reduce urban pollutants - so sat in traffic & slow speeds in citys.
EGR valves don't operate under anything other than very little/no throttle anyway, adding further to the 'City driving' thing.
#19: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: 206HdiGti, Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:13 am ---- I haven't done anything with my EGR.
I have bigger issues now rather than worrying about emissions!
#20: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: pro_steve, Location: BristolPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:10 am ---- That's not right, EGR reduces NOx by reducing combustion temperatures. It does this by adding exhaust gasses which effectively act as an inert gas and reduce both cylinder temperatures and pressures, EGR only operates at low load, you'll notice slightly better pick up with off it but no increase in top end power. I remove EGRs to prevent them from going wrong in future because it's 90% certain that the solenoid will break and cause problems (at some point).
DPF does not catch any NOx, NOx is a gas, it only catches small particles of soot. Most of the diesels run very clean nowadays so we don't really need them over here, try driving along the roads in Vietnam and you'll be choked by thick black smoke.
The problem with DPF is that you need to drive the car long distances to heat up the filter enough to burn off the soot, most people don't do this and it clogs up.
Another problem with the DPF and cat system is the amount of residual heat it stores. If the filter is regenerating whilst you're cruising at motorway speeds you could be running it as hot as 1000C. When you switch off your engine and don't let it run a few minutes to cool down the turbo the residual heat cooks the oil left standing in the turbo. If you keep doing this you coke up the bearings and oil lines and eventually end up with turbo failure.
Take the DPF and cat out and you're much less likely to see problems with your turbo, it's a no brainer to the average consumer who doesn't have unlimited money.
#21: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: 206HdiGti, Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:39 am ---- Steve you ever had an issues with snapped glow plugs?or that not your area? sorry to hijack the thread. I'll Pm you if you've had issues with these.
#22: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: pro_steve, Location: BristolPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:03 am ---- Never been that unlucky. I generally don't touch glow plugs as the hdis don't really need them anyway. If there's no thread left on it you could try loading the engine to pop it out, obviously you'll need to devise a way of catching it so it doesn't shoot through the bonnet, could save you taking the head off....
#23: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: 206HdiGti, Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:04 am ---- I've driven it 120 miles since it's been like it and it hasn't been sucked in or spat out yet...
It's not the metal casing that in there, it's the ceramic end which has been carboned up and stuck in the hole.
#24: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: pro_steve, Location: BristolPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:54 am ---- You'll need to get the head off then..
#25: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:08 pm ----
badj wrote:
I'm not aware of any HGV or plant vehicles with DPFs, so it's an odd tactic to focus on the passenger car
Certain Toyota diesel forklifts have DPF's fitted, these plug in to the mains to carry out a regen & burn the soot of the filter.
The newer diesel engines designs being fitted now have done away with the DPF all together as the engine is a lot cleaner.
#26: Re: ERG, DPF, FAP Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:33 pm ---- pro-steve: I yes know about residual heat in DPF. My alfa diag software gives readout of DPF temp on each burn. Last burn before removal and re-map was 780 deg C.
I have seen a DPF set fire to a grass verge in the middle of summer.
I have seen a DPF ruin a painted garage floor during a forced regen. Why anyone would start a forced regen inside a garage baffles me. Not due to the heat but the smoke!
I wasn't telling the OP not to do it just making sure the decision was fully informed. As I said I have removed DPF and EGR and re-mapped every diesel that I have owned.
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