#1: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:39 am ---- Recently I had couple of issues with my car, and non of the recommendations given here worked for me. Today I decided to take off my spark plugs and try to discover what is going on (they only done couple of thousand kilometers). I took off two plugs from 1 & 4 cylinders. And here what I found-I'm posting several pics for both plugs:
Symptoms involve engine management light comes on occasionally, and I lose all power in the accelerator pedal then.
Those plugs are non OEM (I always use them), but they are Bosch with the correct matching part number as they are with two electrodes. They are copper plugs. Those plugs done only couple of thousand kilometers.
Note: Previous plugs changed during the last service had the same contamination issue. So it seems that every time I change plugs, they got fouled quickly for a reason.
The car has been suffering also from a difficult overheating problem, which sounds unsolvable! As I tried most of the common tips. I assumed it could be an incorrect air/fuel mixture (too lean) that are causing the car to run hotter, but after reading the spark plugs, I'm not sure if it is lean or rich! They are fouled anyway. I leave the decision to you!
I have bought new OEM plugs, and they are ready to fit. But I'm afraid to fit them and they get fouled again! I want to fix the issue first.
Best,
M
#2: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: Oafie, Location: Glyn CeiriogPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:36 am ---- They look like your engine is running a bit rich, they would be white and clean with no deposits if it was running lean. Maybe the engine temp sensor or o2 sensor is causing the problem, you need to plug it into a diagnostic machine while the eml light is on and that would point you in the right direction.
#3: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:24 am ---- I doubt it's the plugs with those symptoms .. I'd be happy with plugs that looked like those and would give it an Italian Tune-Up" once in a while.
As Oafie says, you need to get it on a diagnostic.
#4: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: MrBSI, Location: What's it to you? ? ?Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:18 am ---- Are those plugs the correct heat range for the engine?
Where did you get the Bosch part number for those plugs from?
#5: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:23 am ----
gazza82 wrote:
I doubt it's the plugs with those symptoms .. I'd be happy with plugs that looked like those and would give it an Italian Tune-Up" once in a while.
As Oafie says, you need to get it on a diagnostic.
Plus I have been running my car for 15 years, and never seen my plugs look like this! May be I went wrong for 15 yrs and now it started to be good
#6: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:25 am ----
MrBSI wrote:
Are those plugs the correct heat range for the engine?
Where did you get the Bosch part number for those plugs from?
MrBSI, the part number of those plugs is FR8LDCU. They are from a Bosch distributor.
#7: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: Oafie, Location: Glyn CeiriogPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:35 am ---- looking at the photo's of your engine you should be using Bosch FR7DE's,
#8: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:55 am ----
Oafie wrote:
looking at the photo's of your engine you should be using Bosch FR7DE's,
Yes. Oafie, the OEM ones are on my table now. They have the part number you mentioned. But I used to use the FR8LDCU with no problems. Technically, there should be no much different between both. The FR8LDCU are just with 2 electrodes and come pre gapped to 1 cm (that is the U). 7 & 8 are the heat ranges, but the different is so slight.
I bought the OEM plugs just in case, I can still fit them and give them a try, but would this make any risk of damaging the new plugs if there is a problem somewhere??? Last edited by hamed206 on Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
#9: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: Oafie, Location: Glyn CeiriogPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:02 pm ---- hi mate, I read somewhere that our engine can be quite fussy with their sparkplugs but if you've been using the FR8LDCU's with no problems then maybe there is something else causing the problem, I would have thought that you would be using a cooler plug in Egypt, we don't get as much sun over here in North Wales.
#10: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: Oafie, Location: Glyn CeiriogPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:05 pm ---- just a quick question for you, are you running a gas conversion on your car and that's why you need a hotter running plug?
#11: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:11 pm ----
Oafie wrote:
hi mate, I read somewhere that our engine can be quite fussy with their sparkplugs but if you've been using the FR8LDCU's with no problems then maybe there is something else causing the problem, I would have thought that you would be using a cooler plug in Egypt, we don't get as much sun over here in North Wales.
Yes. I know 206 is so sensitive to spark plugs. Even some brands like NGK work like hell with the 206 engine and damage the coil pack.
I have been using FR8LDCU for about 4 yrs with no problem.
Cooler plugs are better in Egypt because of the hot climate. But no one use something different from the manufacturer recommendations (Peugeot here say no need so).
I can fit the OEM ones as they are on my desk now, but I'm afraid to damage them if there is a problem somewhere and I believe the FR8LDCU are not the problem.
#12: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:12 pm ----
Oafie wrote:
just a quick question for you, are you running a gas conversion on your car and that's why you need a hotter running plug?
No.
#13: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: Oafie, Location: Glyn CeiriogPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:26 pm ---- Not sure what to suggest now then other than try the new plugs and see what happens or plug the car into a diagnostic machine and see if there is something amiss with one of the sensors on the engine.
good luck and let us know how you get on with it.
#14: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:40 pm ----
Oafie wrote:
Not sure what to suggest now then other than try the new plugs and see what happens or plug the car into a diagnostic machine and see if there is something amiss with one of the sensors on the engine.
good luck and let us know how you get on with it.
Ok. But we should not expect too much with the diag test in old 206 models!
#15: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: Oafie, Location: Glyn CeiriogPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:09 pm ---- Your local Peugeot dealer will have the proper test equipment to see what's going on, even the older models.
#16: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:14 pm ----
Oafie wrote:
Your local Peugeot dealer will have the proper test equipment to see what's going on, even the older models.
My experience tell me that the Peugeot Diagnosis equipment don't work well with old models. Actually, show nothing! But let's see.
I'm suspecting couple of things like the O2 sensor. It was changed 5 years ago and I used a non OEM sensor. It was NGK.
#17: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:02 am ---- Check for exhaust leaks. Block the end with a rag while a mate looks in the engine bay and under the car. An exhaust leak, even a tiny one, will probably make your engine run rich.
#18: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:20 am ----
hamed206 wrote:
My experience tell me that the Peugeot Diagnosis equipment don't work well with old models. Actually, show nothing! But let's see.
If they (you) are using official Planet Peugeot diagnostics then it will work ...
They are either not connecting it properly, using the wrong cables or using other software which isn't compatible ...
#19: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:30 pm ----
gazza82 wrote:
hamed206 wrote:
My experience tell me that the Peugeot Diagnosis equipment don't work well with old models. Actually, show nothing! But let's see.
If they (you) are using official Planet Peugeot diagnostics then it will work ...
They are either not connecting it properly, using the wrong cables or using other software which isn't compatible ...
Thanks for the contribution Gazza82. This is a general problem for the semi multiplex. No sufficient information, or all problems are fall under "Mixture Regulation Function" fault! I had different problems with the crank sensor, Lambada, stepper...etc. Non of them was discovered through a diagnosis test by the Peugeot diagnosis equipment. The dealer has the original equipment, original cable, and the updated software. What could a fault named mixture regulation function mean? It could mean bad plugs, bad coil, or one of injection calculation sensors is playing with the air/fuel mixture. So such a message lead to no accurate fault find. And you still have to run more tests on various parts individually.
I trained in Peugeot as a mech engineer when I finished my graduation in 2003. And have seen such things many! Last edited by hamed206 on Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
#20: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:34 pm ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
Check for exhaust leaks. Block the end with a rag while a mate looks in the engine bay and under the car. An exhaust leak, even a tiny one, will probably make your engine run rich.
Good thing to look for Kandlbarrett. I really have tried different things, and non of them seems working.
Also when car is running rich, and it gets the plugs fouled with deposits and carbon (like the picture) do you need to change the plugs? Or you can fix the root cause of the problem and run with the same plugs?
This is an important thing I need to know. Because if I swapped new plugs now, and they got fouled again, does this mean they are ruined? Or can be cleaned and re used?
#21: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: Oafie, Location: Glyn CeiriogPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:13 pm ---- could it mean that the injectors have seen better days, could be dribbling a little bit and causing the rich mixture,
no the plugs are not ruined, just give a gentle clean with a wire brush.
#22: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:22 am ----
Oafie wrote:
could it mean that the injectors have seen better days, could be dribbling a little bit and causing the rich mixture,
no the plugs are not ruined, just give a gentle clean with a wire brush.
Thanks this means that I can give the new OEM plugs a try with no fear they can be damaged. Last edited by hamed206 on Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total
#23: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:25 am ---- I have a slight internal oil leak! Sounds that piston rings started to wear! Could this be a part of the problem? I mean oil entering combustion can foul spark plugs. I'm not sure if this can cause a situation like in the pictures above. Are plugs fouled because of excess carbon related to air/fuel mixture problem? Or oil entering the combustion?
#24: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: Oafie, Location: Glyn CeiriogPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:18 am ---- I'm not sure either, I thought oil being burnt would leave them black and sort of greasy looking.
plus you would have blue, grey smoke coming out of the exhaust
#25: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:38 am ----
Oafie wrote:
I'm not sure either, I thought oil being burnt would leave them black and sort of greasy looking.
plus you would have blue, grey smoke coming out of the exhaust
No permanent smoke blue or grey. But the tail pipe is full of black!
#26: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:12 pm ---- Update:
I have been able to put the car on a diagnosis test today. And unfortunately, it showed nothing on the test. Also all reading parameters are good this include both MAP & O2 sensors.
They have also tried a new coil pack, but didn't work. There is an excess "black" smoke coming from the exhaust and a smell of unburned fuel which become noticeable.
The engineer told me that he see no problem on the test, but the car is performing like a crap! And it is not burning fuel at all. So he suggested two things: try the new plugs (which I will do it tomorrow) and if the problem persist, it left nothing but the ECU
My ECU was replaced with a re conditioned one from ecu-testing 4 years ago. I bought it for 200GBP from ebay. If the problem turned out to be "ECU" any suggestions for where to get another one which is price reasonable? Mine is Magnet Marelli IAW 1AP.81
Last thing to mention, MAP sensor was reading 973 during the test at idle! While O2 was reading 996.
Best.
#27: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:36 pm ----
hamed206 wrote:
Last thing to mention, MAP sensor was reading 973 during the test at idle! While O2 was reading 996.
973 and 996 what?
#28: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:50 pm ----
gazza82 wrote:
hamed206 wrote:
Last thing to mention, MAP sensor was reading 973 during the test at idle! While O2 was reading 996.
973 and 996 what?
Sorry for this.
996mv
973mB
#29: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:48 am ---- Time for a compression test?
#30: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:23 pm ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
Time for a compression test?
Car cut out several times today when idling. Engine management like come on while driving and I lose all power in the accelerator pedal for seconds, then it return to normal but the fan kicks!!! Many things are playing up together. Fan kicks, engine management light come on and off, car hesitates, poor overall performance and acceleration, also the car overheats on the high way. No one really is able to help or to advise about something.
This french crap thing, I don't know why I kept it for 15 years! It was my fault!
#31: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:15 am ---- Hello folks,
This is an update!
I replaced the ECU, and it did fix many symptoms. There is no jerking at cold start now. No loss of power suddenly at acceleration. No engine management light playing (on & off). But in overall, the car performance is not very good. There is a poor performance in terms of both acceleration and top speed. I also replaced those spark plugs that stated int he initial boost with the Peugeot OEM ones. I assumed the ECU was the problem of this incorrect mixture which caused a carbon build up on the plugs.
Any ideas?
Cheers.
#32: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:00 am ---- After replacing the ECU, it did solve the following:
Occasional cut out issue
Engine jerking
Engine management light coming on while driving
But the problem that I have initially reported in this post which is the fouling issue of plugs didn't solve! I fitted new OEM plugs with the replacement ECU hopefully that a new ECU would solve the problem. But I'm still running rich (I think), car is poorly accelerating specially when getting hot. It is very weak, I feel it! When the car is cold it seems running much better! This is a symptom of incorrect fuel/air mixture and a rich running. The car also starts at the morning very fast! With no hesitation!
My mechanic is suggesting the fuel injectors, but because the 4 plugs are fouled, how come the whole 4 injectors got faulty at once?????!
Any advises from people who have been following this post?
Best regards.
#33: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:03 am ----
Oafie wrote:
could it mean that the injectors have seen better days, could be dribbling a little bit and causing the rich mixture,
no the plugs are not ruined, just give a gentle clean with a wire brush.
Oafie, if injectors are faulty, why the 4 plugs are fouled? Are the 4 injectors faulty?
#34: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: Project2062014, Location: CornwallPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:27 am ---- Sounds like you have little compression( piston rings) .
When it gets hot the head expands and you lose even more compression .That why it poor when hot & no power .
Thats my opinion .
Injectors doubt it . Be light on dash and probably a misfire .
Headgasket leak ?
#35: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:42 am ----
Project2062014 wrote:
Sounds like you have little compression( piston rings) .
When it gets hot the head expands and you lose even more compression .That why it poor when hot & no power .
Thats my opinion .
Injectors doubt it . Be light on dash and probably a misfire .
Headgasket leak ?
Could it be a bad cylinder head?
No. Head Gasked is not leaking. The fouled spark plugs in the initial pictures are a result of either oil burning, or over fueling. I think it is the first one.
When revving to 5,000 RPM (while car is stopped) there is a blue smoke! Could this be worn piston rings?
I'm assuming piston rings too as it leaks oil, but I have started to use a thicker oil combined with an additive which already slowed down the leak.
The car is also very weak in torque. At 2nd gear it only reach 4,000RPM!
Regards.
#36: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:32 pm ---- The pictures look more like over-fuelling (mixture on rich side) to me .. I wouldn't describe them as fouled at all.
How do you know the head gasket isn't leaking? Have you done a "sniff test" on the coolant?
#37: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:24 pm ----
gazza82 wrote:
The pictures look more like over-fuelling (mixture on rich side) to me .. I wouldn't describe them as fouled at all.
How do you know the head gasket isn't leaking? Have you done a "sniff test" on the coolant?
Hello gazza82, thanks for your comment. Any comment actually give me a hope for solving these terrible issues!
Actually, I have checked the head gasket several times with no hope. A blue smoke is not an indication of coolant leakage by the way. A white smoke is.
The smoke I'm seeing is blue, and only appear at very high rev when car is stopped. When I'm moving, it doesn't reach any RPM over 4,000!
There is also another symptom which I discovered today. When taking off the oil filler cap, there is a large air blowing out from the engine, is this normal for 206? I have heard in many cars that this could be an indication either of faulty PCV system or worn engine parts (cylinders, bores, pistons..etc). Where is that PCV system in 206? PCV stands for Pressure Crankcase Ventilation.
Thanks.
#38: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:29 am ---- Where are the wet and dry compression test results?
Are you sure the temp sensors are working correctly. If the car always thinks it is cold then it will over fuel when it gets hot because the ecu will think the engine is cold.
Have you checked all inlet pipes and breathers thoroughly for leaks and splits?
Have you done a thorough check of the exhaust pipe for leaks?
How have you checked the head gasket? Compression test or sniff test?
If you you have done all above and are certain it is down on power (the plugs aren't that bad) and using excess fuel (despite meeting emissions tests) then you are almost at the point where best advice is rolling road and live data read with PP2000 and assistance from a knowledgeable technician.
#39: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:32 am ---- Please also post new pics of your plug colours, though the tests above are now more valuable than plug colour.
#40: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:05 am ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
Where are the wet and dry compression test results?
Are you sure the temp sensors are working correctly. If the car always thinks it is cold then it will over fuel when it gets hot because the ecu will think the engine is cold.
Have you checked all inlet pipes and breathers thoroughly for leaks and splits?
Have you done a thorough check of the exhaust pipe for leaks?
How have you checked the head gasket? Compression test or sniff test?
If you you have done all above and ar e certain it is down on power (the plugs aren't that bad) and using excess fuel (despite meeting emissions tests) then you are almost at the point where best advice is rolling road and live data read with PP2000 and assistance from a knowledgeable technician.
The compression test will be performed very soon, and I will update the results.
I have no water leak, and my head gasket is fine.
As I said before in this topic, I have changed the temp sensor, but didn't solve the over fueling issue (I'm still not sure if the deposit on the plugs is a result of over fueling or oil burn). One technician told me it is over fueling, another told me it is burning oil and the engine need re build!
The car is over consuming fuel.
I will try to re post new pics of the spark plugs as soon as I take them off!
What about the air blowing from the oil filler cap? Is this normal in 206? The internal oil leak? The blue smoke at high rev?
The car is 170K mileage by the way. What is the life time of these French engines?
#41: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:41 am ---- Oil blowing from filler cap is either very badly blocked breather hoses or, probably or more likely head gasket or piston ring failure.
How have you tested the head gasket? You are so sure there isn't a problem but you haven't described how you tested it.
Do you know how to do a wet and dry compression test and what to look for? I think this will prove where your problem is. The compression test is something I told you to do a long time ago in this thread and you have effectively been wasting your and everyone elses time repeating questions yet not doing that simple test.
Have you checked the exhaust for leaks using an assistant to block the tailpipe?
Have you checked all the engine breather hoses to make sure they are not split, leaking or blocked?
I certainly won't be guessing at root cause until you answer each of these questions in detail and I strongly suggest others don't either. If they do continue guessing without these clearly answered I also suggest that you ignore them.
The only thing I am not sure about with this engine is if the breather system is fitted with any type of filter. My dad had an old Vauxhall Vectra and there is a gauze filter in the breather system, that got blocked with hardened oily soot which gave some of the symptoms you have but my money is on loss of compression due to worn rings and or bores.
Do the compression test and stop p**sing about.
#42: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:46 am ---- Compression test first suggested Nov 24th. Nearly 8 weeks ago.
#43: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:38 pm ---- Kandlbarrett, are you trying to say that head gaskets can be blown without water being leaked some where? I'm not losing water as I stated before. The gasket was actually changed 6 months ago because of internal leakage which was cured after the replacement. But I still have an overheat issue! The electric man who spent his entire life in Peugeot saying that I have to check the blue temp sender switch.
The only way I know on how to do a compression test is through the spark plugs place by taking them off. I used to work in Peugeot service center as an Engineer, but I left the career long time ago.
I'm trying to state the obvious and the very clear symptoms. An air blowing from the oil filler cap is a bad symptom. But in some cars like Honda VTech it is indeed normal.
There is no filter in the oil breather hose, either I can see no valve.
The oil breather hose is also new, so it shouldn't be blocked. You can simply test it by taking it off from where it was fitted at the engine and see if there is a sufficient air being sucked through the intake air manifold.
I never intended to waste anyone's time, but the car has terrible signs of engine wear.
I was not sure about the spark plugs reading. I got confused by many opinions, some suggesting it is injectors faulty, and others saying oil burn. Lately, I was advised to try an engine flush chemical as it may help if piston rings are stuck by too many carbon deposits. I have also been advised to try a valve cleaner product to clean the combustion chamber from deposits and see if the spark plugs reading are being improved.
If the fault is injectors, will it affect the 4 plugs? If they are the piston rings, will also be the 4 plugs?!
Blue smoke is a strong sign of oil burning too. I'm losing oil anyway, but the car started to do this few years ago, and I'm using 20W-50 motor oil. So what is new?
I have tested the exhaust for leakage at the service center. And I tried to do the same in the morning when the car was cold. The result is no leakage.
We ran a diagnosis check using Peugeot Plant but nothing come out. Ignition timing is OK, MAP reading fine, and Lambada's reading is fluctuating. Never thought of doing it while car is running on road. Might be a good idea though!
I used to have my own DIAG tester, but the cable got damaged so I'm unable to do tests myself. I enjoyed this in the past!
I think I have answered all the questions except the comp test. The problem is that last time I asked the service center (near my home) to do the comp test they told me that they have two devices, one is not working, and the other will do it only for 406 and some other models and I have to go to another center far from my home to do the test.
#44: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:41 am ---- If you have worked in a service centre as an engineer go and by a compression tester from any good parts shop and test it yourself.
If you have worked in a service centre you will know head gaskets can fail without making the car loose water - it is not always that catastrophic.
If you worked in a service centre you will know injectors can foul one, two, three or all plugs.
If you worked in a service centre you will know that while pistons and rings normally wear evenly it is not unusual for one or two to suddenly become worse than the others.
If you worked in a service centre I am surprised you had a head gasket changed on a high mileage car without checking the carbon deposits on the valves and cleaning or reseating a required.
You asked what has changed since you first started using oil? The obvious one is that in those two years you have driven more miles and the wear has worsened.
Including spanners and a compression tester you can buy the tools in the UK to do a compression test for £40 or less.
Do the compression test.
#45: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:00 am ---- Interesting Kandlbarrett!
For your knowledge, a simple failure in the head gasket that didn't cause oil and water to mix or is not severe can be simply fixed with a bottle of head gasket seal product. I have actually tried this many. And it works! Specially for the Peugeot 206.
What you don't know is that there are actually many ways to simply test a blown head gasket rather than doing a compression test. People always through the "compression test" words because this is the only method they know. Without the existence of the head gasket wear symptoms, it is a waste of time to test what is not appearing as a failure! Have you heard about what is called the head gasket Failure Modes?
As for the injectors, I'm still not sure if a fault in one injector can cause the whole 4 plus to be carbonated! It is difficult! Most mechanics would say Lambada because deposits are in the 4 plugs.
Interesting point about the head gasket change and the valves check. Who said that valves or valves seals have not been checked when the gasket was removed???
You are right about the oil and the excess wear that may have occurred during the past years. But I'm still losing the same amount of oil (1 litre every 3K miles) nothing changed!
I have noticed that the exhaust smoke sometimes appear blue, and sometimes appear black! My mechanic is saying that this smoke is a result of over fueling not oil burn, and he wanted to rule out the probability of engine wear issue. It was my thoughts regarding the oil burning issue because it loses oil.
I will perform the compression test as you encouraged me to do so. But this is not going to solve the over fueling issue if exist!
#46: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:48 pm ---- Seal product won't work if the leak is compression between two cylinders - rare but does happen.
You seem to assume I am recommending compression test to test head gasket. I am more inclined to think you have low compression doe to bore and ring wear; that is why I say compression test it. Very cheap to do (Simple DIY) and rules out wasting money on other things if compression is down.
Head gasket tests are sniff, compression and leak down. I have done them all but I have only done leak down only on large (8 litre plus) industrial diesels. If there are more tests please educate me and the others here. I am alway open to new information or knowledge. What test have you done and why choose that?
In you previous post you stated that you had been recommended a valve cleaning product to clean the combustion chambers. As you haven't discounted that I assume you are considering it. If the head gasket was done 6 months ago it would be a very sick engine that was clogged up already.
#47: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:22 am ---- When I changed the gasket, I skimmed the cylinder head which is something I regret that I have done! Skimming the head always reduce performance. And whether someone tell you it is just small or big amount that has been cut off, it will anyway reduce performance.
The spark plugs carbonating issue started few months before the head gasket job. But yes I agree that you may need some valves cleaner after the head gasket job, and this can be a part of the current smoking problem.
My problem with the compression test is that not too many folks around perform it on 206. My mechanic who has been servicing my car since 2000 is saying that I don't have to worry now about the piston rings. And the current leak is still acceptable.
This puts me back to start searching for what is causing the over fueling in my car. Lambada, MAP, TPS,...etc. I really hate searching around those sensors. Actually this car injection calculating sensors and parts (inclusive the ECU) are not reliable at all.
#48: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:01 am ---- If you won't do a compression test to just rule it out I offer no more advice. Good luck.
Skimming a head should improve performance unless you have really crap fuel that is outside the ECU adjusting for.
Buy the tools and compression test yourself. You worked as an Engineer in a service department so know how to do it and how easy it is.
Good luck - keep guessing.
#49: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:52 am ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
Skimming a head should improve performance unless you have really crap fuel that is outside the ECU adjusting for.
No Kandlbarrett.
It sounds that you are talking for the perspective of tuning and increasing the compression ratio while you don't see it from the other side. Here are the facts:
Result of polishing a cylinderhead is generally:
A few BHP + in most high revs.
You will loose some in low revs.
Reason: a good combustion needs a minimum in turbulence to burn good and completely.
Explanation of what will happen after this:
High speed (= high rev) gasmixture will burn good because it is 'slammed' into the combustion chamber and thus mixture will be fine. You win BHP because the intake part of cylinderhead offers less resistance and more air can enter.
Low speed revs: you loose BHP because the gas/air has no high speed (low revs) and so there's not enough speed/turbulence to create ideal circumstances for the mixture to burn perfect.
Conclusion: this is a typical 'high performance' tuning, only of use for engines that run only in the highest revs at full load. At low revs or in daily use this is money thrown away. It will be much better to get a new cylinder head.
Skimming the cylinderhead: you're lucky to have a knocksensor. Because the risk for detonation increases (compression is higher). Pay very well attention to
- valvetiming as the distance from the camshaftpignonwheel -> crankshaftpignongwheel will decrease.
- distance valve - piston
That's why using high compression pistons is highly recommended in tuned engines over the cylinder head polishing. The result will be better (higher compression) and the HC pistons leave some space for the valves.
Thanks anyway for your follow up.
#50: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:10 am ---- Uh? What are you talking about?
The suggestion to "skim" the head is nothing about performance .. it's to make sure it is perfectly flat!
And the compression test is to check you don't have a rings issue .. if everything is as it should be you will have no difference across the four readings .. if you have you need the engine out. Look up "leak-down" test as well ... that will show how much compression is being lost through bad rings, worn bores or dodgy valves.
Why is your "mechanic" so against checking? Is it that he knows you have an engine issue but this way he can make more money out of you?
Oh and skimming a cylinder head IS a performance tweak ... it doesn't make a lot of HP, but it is part of a tuned engine to increase compression ratio.
#51: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:03 pm ---- I have never known anyone complain that they had their head skimmed when having a gasket renewed before. I am astonished.
I have been tuning cars since the Leylamd 'A' series, through Ford Crossflow and Pinto, Escort turbo then Fiat and Alfa twin cams and what you say is true but nothing like enough to mean any one wouldn't skim their head if needed on gasket renewal or just to be certain it is perfectly flat. Also with high mileage engine and Alloy head it would be very unusual not to have some surface pitting that will be stress points for the gasket and a skim will remove or make these much smaller.
And who said anything about polishing? Not me!
A compression test may prove nothing wrong but is a step that I feel is essential.
You are an ex Service Engineer I don't understand why you aren't doing it yourself. Last edited by kandlbarrett on Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
#52: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:10 pm ---- One last one. You still haven't described which of the many different ways you used to test the head gasket.
End for me.
#53: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:22 pm ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
I have never known anyone complain that they had their head skimmed when having a gasket renewed before. I am astonished.
Actually, I have seen most of overheating issues ended with head gasket replace + cylinder head skim! May be you have never known anyone experienced a bad overheating before.
#54: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:26 pm ----
gazza82 wrote:
Uh? What are you talking about?
The suggestion to "skim" the head is nothing about performance .. it's to make sure it is perfectly flat!
Agree. But sometimes it is better to get another head rather than skimming it.
Kandlbarrett suggested that this would increase performance, but I don't see it like this for daily use cars.
#55: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:29 pm ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
A compression test may prove nothing wrong but is a step that I feel is essential.
I don't have the tool. Plus I have been putting my hand in this 206 for 14 years, you can say I got bored from it
#56: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:30 pm ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
One last one. You still haven't described which of the many different ways you used to test the head gasket.
You didn't tell me why I should bother checking the head gasket?!
Anyway I used to do the pressure test for the cooling system.
#57: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:53 pm ---- You state you were a service engineer but are now using a mechanic! I have never seen a good mechanic, even after leaving the trade not have a basic tool kit and DIY their own car. Especially on old car.
You can remove plugs to take photos but won't or can't do a compression test?
You have fouled plugs and don't know if the car is running rich or lean!
At one point you seem surprised by my suggestion that a head gasket can fail without water leaking then come back asking me if I have heard of head gasket failure modes?
I ask anyone here if they have heard of a first skim for gasket renewal to cause over heat?
You have said you know the head gasket it isn't a problem. I asked how you knew and you said there are more ways to check than compression test and you know head is good but won't say how you know that.
You have shown photos of two plugs but not, as promised, of the other two. Why not?
In one post you state you are burning oil then later change your mind. In another you complain of black exhaust both suggest worn rings.
The tool is very cheap (less than £15 on eBay) buy one and take photos of the results.
I am frustrated and, after reading your posts from beginning to end, I can only conclude that you are all theory and have very little or no practical application.
#58: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:55 pm ---- Pressure test for cooling system doesn't prove head gasket. What a joke.
#59: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:15 pm ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
I am frustrated and, after reading your posts from beginning to end, I can only conclude that you are all theory and have very little or no practical application.
So you are here to assess everyone's skills based on your opinion about his posts? And claim that you are the chief of knowledge?
You should help or stay off! If I know how to solve this, I would have never posted anything here. But the forum will not look helpful with such a conversation. Last edited by hamed206 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:45 pm; edited 3 times in total
#60: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:16 pm ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
Pressure test for cooling system doesn't prove head gasket. What a joke.
Yes, the joke was your question not my answer, the assumption of head gasket has nothing to do with my problem!
And you came up with your theory: skimming cyl head improves performance!! And failed to discuss this scientifically. Last edited by hamed206 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:51 pm; edited 3 times in total
#61: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:19 pm ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
You have shown photos of two plugs but not, as promised, of the other two. Why not?
Because the four plugs are identical. They all have the same condition. Why you assume I'm hiding something? The problem is really annoying me. My car consumes fuel like hell!
#62: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: hamed206, Location: EgyptPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:23 pm ----
kandlbarrett wrote:
You have fouled plugs and don't know if the car is running rich or lean!
In one post you state you are burning oil then later change your mind. In another you complain of black exhaust both suggest worn rings.
Fouling could be also a result of oil burning.
The exhaust has both smokes, black and blue. I did said that in my recent posts.
During the post, my car has changed the ECU so things got different. It was not smoking black on the old ECU. It sound that you haven't read the posts carefully and you are just throwing out individual comments!
#63: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:40 am ---- As you don't want to spend £15 and do a basic test, if only to rule that out, don't value my opinion or advice and finally so many others here are offering help I will leave it to them to guide you.
Good luck.
#64: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:00 pm ---- Power is directly related to MEP and thermal efficiency, assuming detonation (pinking or pre-ignition call it what you like) are not encountered then increasing compression ratio increases both MEP and thermal efficiency and thus power at all throttle openings.
If you want to debate effects of compression ratio on power and why high performance engines usually have high compression ratios I suggest we move that to the Performance forum.
Of course one fix may be to fit two head gaskets thus reducing compression ratio, reducing MEP and reducing thermal efficiency yet miraculously increase power. (Joke.)
Ops almost forgot that increasing compression ratio also usually increases swirl and mixture of fuel and air and the higher pressures cause those atoms to whizz around desperate to react with something! Last edited by kandlbarrett on Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
#65: Re: Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? Author: kandlbarrett, Location: SwindonPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:45 pm ---- Am I crazy - still offering to help. Your middle name isn't Beresford is it.
So if I assume all your statements are true oil burning can be ruled out and you only problems are low on power, using excess fuel with all plugs equally fouled and black or blue exhaust smoke.
What is your previous and current mpg.
Things to consider /check:-
Low Compression.
Valve timing (belt jumped a tooth.)
Lambda pre or post cat.
Inlet leak.
Exhaust leak pre lambda.
Defective or blocked catalytic converter.
Wrong ECU fitted.
Damaged ECU connector.
New ECU defective.
Low voltage to ECU causing lots of weird problems.
MAP(T).
Temp sensor
Have you had four gas exhaust analysis done since fitting the new ECU.
The order I would check on balance of probability / cost / difficulty for a DIY.
Exhaust leak - free.
Inlet leak - free.
ECU part number check - free.
ECU plug connector visual check - free.
Temp sensor - free and you don't need a meter. With the engine hot and cold pull off the sensor connector and see if the revs change.
Timing belt jumped a tooth - free
Blocked cat - free.
Compression test. £10 for a tester.
Battery voltage, good earths and supply voltage to ECU. £10 or less for a cheap meter.
Lambda - do it with you new meter so now free.
MAP(T) - free with your new meter.
New ECU defective - good luck checking that.
I don't know how you can use excess fuel and pass the exhaust emission unless Egypt has very lax regulations. Get a four gas test done and post results though bare in mind that the cat will be trying to correct any high reading so pre cat reading on a good exhaust is usually higher than tail pipe reading but you probably can't do a pre-cat check.
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this means that I can give the new OEM plugs a try with no fear they can be damaged.
