#16: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: ekjdm14, Location: CheshirePosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:24 am ---- Yes the AC is a pretty common failure point partly due to age and lack of use (which dries the seals out, the gas then escapes) and the condenser is quite vulnerable to stone damage at the front of the car so it's quite likely not working. The system won't power up the compressor if there's insufficient gas, to save damage, although there is a possibility of the electrical side of the clutch being faulty too.
If the outer pulley is spinning freely and quietly on the inner then it's unlikely to be the source of the noise, this is really bugging me now as it's one of those faults that you really need to look at first-hand to diagnose properly & I'd hate to advise replacing something only for it not to cure the noise!
I know you've changed quite a few parts already (and presumably tested with the belt off & the noise is gone?) but on the replacement parts have you spun the bearings by hand and listened for any hint of being less than buttery smooth/having any kind of play in them? Obviously the PAS pump itself won't spin as easily but should still feel smooth. And have you checked/replaced the crank pulley too? (rusty stains around the rubber damper part indicate failure).
Final thought, is the belt a good quality new-ish one? the squeaking on full lock indicates slight slippage of the belt & that shouldn't be happening with a good belt so may indicate either worn/nasty belt, weak tensioner, or that (more my thoughts at this point) something it's driving is tighter than it should be.
#17: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: clicon357, Location: KentPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:16 pm ---- @ekjdm14, thanks for that. I've not run it with the belt off but will try and put it on the two post ramp at the weekend with a paint mark on each pulley and a strong light to maybe see what's going on. Also picked up a new Gates 1565mm belt tonight. I see from my receipts I last changed the belt on 15 Dec 2017. Didn't write the mileage down though! Car has now done 126,000 miles so that belts been on for about 16,000 miles.
#18: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:45 am ---- 16k for a belt is nothing .. I would look at the tensioner ... they do fail and wear ...
#19: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: clicon357, Location: KentPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:19 am ----
gazza82 wrote:
16k for a belt is nothing .. I would look at the tensioner ... they do fail and wear ...
I'm hoping not, well expensive I think. £150 on Eurocarparts rings a bell, is why I only replaced the tensioner pulley.
In theory then if I run the car and CAREFULLY increase the tension on the tensioner it might help diagnosing?
#20: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: ekjdm14, Location: CheshirePosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:09 am ---- Now, I can't remember for sure but isn't it possible to replace just the pulley part of the tensioner? £150 is a lot and if it's just the bearing that's bad (and it really, really sounds like bearing drone to me) then it'd be more economical to replace just that, if possible.
If you're going to be poking around the area with the engine running (not advisable, but something I might consider in your position if I'm honest) then I would probably focus more on feeling for a vibration coming from one of the pulleys. Also the issue may show up in the form of heat if it's a bearing that's bad, from a cold start if one pulley gets much warmer quicker than all the rest I'd focus down on that.
Just watch those fingers! (and goes without saying, short sleeve job, no rings/bracelets etc)
#21: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: clicon357, Location: KentPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:10 pm ----
ekjdm14 wrote:
Now, I can't remember for sure but isn't it possible to replace just the pulley part of the tensioner? £150 is a lot and if it's just the bearing that's bad (and it really, really sounds like bearing drone to me) then it'd be more economical to replace just that, if possible.
If you're going to be poking around the area with the engine running (not advisable, but something I might consider in your position if I'm honest) then I would probably focus more on feeling for a vibration coming from one of the pulleys. Also the issue may show up in the form of heat if it's a bearing that's bad, from a cold start if one pulley gets much warmer quicker than all the rest I'd focus down on that.
Just watch those fingers! (and goes without saying, short sleeve job, no rings/bracelets etc)
I have replaced just the roller on the tensioner. Made no difference.
No time to try today due to other issues but tomorrow then I will:
1) White mark all pullies
2) Take the belt off and run. See if noise goes away.
3) Put back old belt. Try adding tension via square drive in tensioner and see if noise goes away.
4) Soak belt, noise should stop, see which pulley is slowing(?) Maybe pinpoint the issue that way.
5) Put new belt on and run.
#22: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: gazza82, Location: South BucksPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:15 pm ----
clicon357 wrote:
gazza82 wrote:
16k for a belt is nothing .. I would look at the tensioner ... they do fail and wear ...
I'm hoping not, well expensive I think. £150 on Eurocarparts rings a bell, is why I only replaced the tensioner pulley.
In theory then if I run the car and CAREFULLY increase the tension on the tensioner it might help diagnosing?
for a tensioner??? Sure that wasn't a typo??? I'd even call a Pug dealer as I've found some parts are cheaper that ECP, GSF, etc ..
#23: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: clicon357, Location: KentPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:22 am ----
gazza82 wrote:
clicon357 wrote:
gazza82 wrote:
16k for a belt is nothing .. I would look at the tensioner ... they do fail and wear ...
I'm hoping not, well expensive I think. £150 on Eurocarparts rings a bell, is why I only replaced the tensioner pulley.
In theory then if I run the car and CAREFULLY increase the tension on the tensioner it might help diagnosing?
for a tensioner??? Sure that wasn't a typo??? I'd even call a Pug dealer as I've found some parts are cheaper that ECP, GSF, etc ..
No typo. Using the current discount code brings it down to £94.24 which still seems a lot. Pity you can't just get a new spring!
#24: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: ekjdm14, Location: CheshirePosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:20 pm ---- Loose tensioner very unlikely to cause this kind of sound, much more likely if it were over tight so I would really not suspect the tensioner itself at this stage (and certainly not at those prices!)
#25: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: clicon357, Location: KentPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:34 pm ---- Some progress methinks! Leaning towards the AC clutch being the source of the noise. Video clips then:
#26: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: ekjdm14, Location: CheshirePosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:28 pm ---- Yes that AC pulley sounds rough and gritty just spinning it by hand & the noise getting quieter with reduced tension again points squarely at a bearing noise. Perhaps the water thing was a red-herring and was just enough water getting into the bearing to shut it up?
Either way I think the way forward is to either replace the AC pulley bearing or (if the AC is dead and you have no intention of reviving it) then I think it should be possible to get a shorter, non-AC, belt and bypass the compressor.
#27: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: clicon357, Location: KentPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:14 pm ----
ekjdm14 wrote:
Yes that AC pulley sounds rough and gritty just spinning it by hand & the noise getting quieter with reduced tension again points squarely at a bearing noise. Perhaps the water thing was a red-herring and was just enough water getting into the bearing to shut it up?
Either way I think the way forward is to either replace the AC pulley bearing or (if the AC is dead and you have no intention of reviving it) then I think it should be possible to get a shorter, non-AC, belt and bypass the compressor.
New, shorter belt sounds good! I'm just trying to find what length it is for a non AC belt and whether the configuration is the same / whether there's an extra idler.
Debating partially stripping the AC clutch and replacing the bearing.
#28: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: ekjdm14, Location: CheshirePosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:44 pm ---- If you're able to replace the bearing I feel that'd be the preferable option, not sure on the extra idler I'll try and pull up some pics and see what both setups look like & get back on that.
The AC clutch shouldn't be too awful to strip, but might need a puller to remove the old bearing.
EDIT- my inexperience with the PSA website has left me unable to pull up pics from there, but from the general ones on Google it does look like the non-AC version has an extra idler pulley & the tensioner itself looks to be different also, so definitely looks preferable to replace the bearing if possible.
If you really struggle, I have an AC compressor from a 1.4HDi that I stripped recently & could post that your way for the cost of postage, probably less than £10 through Hermes but I think you'll manage. At least it seems the noise has been pinpointed finally! (Even if it isn't the cause, and I believe it is, that pulley ain't right and needs sorting).
#29: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: clicon357, Location: KentPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:16 pm ----
ekjdm14 wrote:
If you're able to replace the bearing I feel that'd be the preferable option, not sure on the extra idler I'll try and pull up some pics and see what both setups look like & get back on that.
The AC clutch shouldn't be too awful to strip, but might need a puller to remove the old bearing.
EDIT- my inexperience with the PSA website has left me unable to pull up pics from there, but from the general ones on Google it does look like the non-AC version has an extra idler pulley & the tensioner itself looks to be different also, so definitely looks preferable to replace the bearing if possible.
If you really struggle, I have an AC compressor from a 1.4HDi that I stripped recently & could post that your way for the cost of postage, probably less than £10 through Hermes but I think you'll manage. At least it seems the noise has been pinpointed finally! (Even if it isn't the cause, and I believe it is, that pulley ain't right and needs sorting).
That's very kind of you.
Wishing now I'd cleaned up & taken the model off the compressor so as to get the right bearing!
I've watched a few YouTube videos on how to do it so will likely give it a go.
#30: Re: 206 PAS Pump Author: ekjdm14, Location: CheshirePosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:56 pm ---- The model number wouldn't be much help with the bearing I suspect, the only parts PSA ever sold were either the complete compressor with clutch or the clutch/pulley/bearing as a unit. Your best shot is stripping the pulley off and looking for the number stamped onto the bearing itself either on the outer race or the shielding, format would be something like 6008ZZ or similar (not sure the exact number but should comply with the basic format, the numbers relate to size and the letters relate to sealing method). Ebay or local bearing factor should be able to help for under a tenner.
If you need the car driveable until you have the bearing let me know and i'll pop the one I have apart and get the bearing number for you.
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