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Forums › The Car › 206 Problems › Suspension Problem - Need Advice Please |
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 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:18 am |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 2721
Trade Rating: +6
Location: UK
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This came up recently on another topic. Are the tyres the same 2 years old? I would check them out, as well as balancing and tracking as you've changed all the components of the suspension.
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:16 am |
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Joined: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 71
Trade Rating: 0
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2 brand new tyres, balancing, not sure about tracking tho
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:27 am |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 2721
Trade Rating: +6
Location: UK
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Definetly get it tracked then.
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:10 am |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Tracking is a way forward but no point getting tracking if there are damaged or incorrcetly fitted components.
If you take it to a reputable 4 wheel alignment centre describe what you have done and that you suspect alignment then they will check all the bushes and other components before doing the work. In fact a good centre will check all components first as that is correct procedure.
The steering going crazy over bumps really points to a defective or incorrectly fitted component.
There is a small chance that the body roll isn't actually body roll but the car being steered by the rear wheels. The rear stub axle bearings on these cars can fail and have the rear wheels pointing at VERY strange angles and cause some very strange sensations. A 4 wheel alignment will check the rear for camber and toe - don't expect it to meet manufacturers specs as very few do (a lot even leave the factory slightly outsdide tolerance) but the centre will tell you if the wear or mis-alignment is excessive.
NOTE: rear alignment can only be corrected by new rear stub axle bearings or new axle.
If you don't fancy the 4 wheel alignment route it may be time to find a reputable independant garage and pay them the £30 for them to have a really good look at it. This does not commit you to letting them repair it.
Some garages, if you talk nicely to them, will let you accompany the fitter under the car.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Last edited by kandlbarrett on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:13 am |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Posts: 4266
Trade Rating: +4
Location: Palestine
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since your car been standing for 2 years before your bring it back to road,i will recommend that you change the tires,because the tires got dry cuz car is not moving,and the grip of the tires will be bad.
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:20 am |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Timon2210: his post above says 2 new tyres fitted.
Not knocking your post as, despite what I have suggested you do have a point and it could still be the rear trying to swing round due to poor rear tyres.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:57 pm |
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Joined: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 71
Trade Rating: 0
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I'd like to thank everyone for the help especially Kandlbarrett, My friend is going to replace my front springs, change rear tyres ( kumho any good? ) and track my car, will only be able to check front as he cant do all 4, but this should be a good start. I have a few other questions, I really dont want to start a new topic so I'm hoping someone here may help me.
I need to order springs before Saturday when he will be working on my car, someone posted that eibach and weitec were good springs, I spoke to demontweek and they told me that Eibach Sportline Lowering Springs Kit front 45mm wont work on my current shocks which are KYB Excel-G, can someone help me and direct me to some springs that will work with my shocks, I dont want super cheap springs thats the only thing.
Also
whats the difference between non sport arches and sport arches? I've tryed searching cant seem to find nothing, can someone show me images of the size difference?
Thanks
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:55 am |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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If you are having tracking done please get 4 wheel alignment. While the rear isn't adjustable on your car the direction the rear wheels point will be measured and compensated for on the front settings.
You can do this with good 2 wheel alignment equipment but very few bother and a lot of people don't even know the technique.
Also, a 4 wheel alignment won't cost any more than just tracking as good centres only charge for what they actually adjust. So a 4 wheel check that includes knowing how bad your rear alignment is and takes that into account will still only cost between £35 and £40. If you do get 4 wheel alignment ask for a the print out as that should make the operator get the front toe spot on rather than just near enough.
NOTE: As previous post do not get alignment done (unless it is free) until you are certain there aren't any more suspension components to change. Changing any component will put it out and you will need it done again. A good alignment will pay for itself in reduced tyre wear / longer tyre life.
EDIT: If it is a GTi180 I would prefer big brand tyres. Anything less and Kumho will suffice though I wouldn't put them on my daughters car.
A couple of tyre tests:-
www.tyrereviews.co.uk/...e-Test.htm
www.autoexpress.co.uk/...-test-2012
EDIT2: With all the problems you are having I would stick with standard springs.
Also when shocks are off; if your mate is knowleageable see what he thinks of their resistance to movement - we haven't explored the possibility that the new shocks are defective. If you have the old ones to compare against the new ones should be noticeably firmer.
While the car is jacked up just get him to check that the anti roll bar isn't cracked or even broken. I doubt it but worth a check.
EDIT3: Worth checking the rear ride height against spec and the torsion bars. Someone hasn't set the torsion bars really low or at different ride heights have they? That would also give weird handling.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Last edited by kandlbarrett on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:39 pm |
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Joined: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 71
Trade Rating: 0
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Hello, I don't think torsion bar has been lowered, rear looks fine, its got about 2.5inch cap from tyre to wheel arch.
My suspension is being ripped out tomorrow and its going to be compared to the old shocks, of everything does look fine, I will want springs with me, I don't want a 4 inch cap between my tyres and arch, I've been looking at springs that will drop my car 1.5 inch, this will take my ride height back to normal, I've also ordered arb bushes for both sides, just in case one is damaged.
Thanks
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:42 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Good luck. Keep us updated with progress.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:14 pm |
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Joined: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 71
Trade Rating: 0
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I've just found out that my front shocks are just OEM replacements, only difference that's meant to be its gas instead of oil, I'll be buying springs tomorrow morning, are spax any good? I can get 40mm springs for 80pd or 30mm springs eibach for 110pound, there are a few choice but I've not heard of many brands, my only concern is do these lowering springs fit OEM front shocks, I was told yesterday I'd have to get smaller dampers, but that's going to cost me again. All i'd like to know should most or all springs fit front oem shocks.
Cheers will keep you updated tomorrow.
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:11 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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I am not a lowering expert but I would expect that shorter springs will fit without problem.
In posting this I have assumed that the critical point is the point at which the car comes to the bottom of its suspension travel. Now if these are standard dampers (I realised they were when you posted what you had bought) the spring pan on the damper should be at exactly the same height as the ones you took off.
The new shorter springs will be stiffer (I assume) so will take a lot more weight or force to compress them to the same point at which the old springs would bottom out the suspension.
Now, as above I am not a lowering expert and may have missed something obvious.
The other area that you now need to consider is that the lowering springs are stiffer than standard. The dampers you have are rated for standard springs. The task of the damper is to stop the spring continuing to bounce up and down after hitting a bump; in other words damp the spring oscillation or bouncing action. Your standard dampers with weaker spring may struggle to do this and certainly won't be a perfect match.
Worse than you have now - I suspect not. An ideal match - no.
Finally I am an old git and get a bit anal and pedantic about springs and dampers.
Most people refer to a damper as a shock absorber and that is not correct. The shock absorber is in fact the spring. It is the spring that absorbs the shock of hitting a bump.
The damper does exactly that, dampen the oscillation of the spring.
Calling a damper a shock absorber is technically very incorrect. Though I sometimes do it myself!
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:26 pm |
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Joined: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 71
Trade Rating: 0
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Just an update, suspension was taken off and reinstalled, we compared the new shocks to old, the old shocks were harder to pull the insert out and push back in. I measured the top of the shock to the bottom were the tray is where it holds the spring and the spring tray was 0.2inch further down with my new shocks. Ride height is still the same, tracking came up spot on, I know you told me to do 4 wheel alignment but this was all he could do, the arb bushing were good. I didn't manage to get the springs I wanted so what I'm going to do is purchase eibach pro line which drops the front by 45mm I believe. So I'll give this a go next I think. I know many of you are probably thinking why doesn't this idiot just replace the whole suspension, reason being I don't have the cash, I don't really wanna wait next month as I hate driving this car, maybe in the future I'll buy new shocks to match my eibach springs.
What i'll do tomorrow aswell is take a picture of the front of my car so you guys can have a look, could just be me being fussy.
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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:02 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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First sentence above? You old shocks being stiffer than your new ones is NOT correct. Your new shocks should be stiffer than your old ones. You old ones ought to be tired by now and quite easy to move. Your new ones should be quite stiff in comparison to the old ones.
I would question, "fitness for purpose" and try to take the existing ones back and get upgraded shocks.
Gas dampers aren't quite what you may think. Gas dampers still use oil to create resistance to movement but they also have a gas charge at anything between 35 and 150psi depending on design. That gas prevents the oil aerating (getting loads of tiny air bubbles in the oil) when they are worked hard so the resistance to movement remains controlled even when the shocks are worked hard.
I would be very inclined to return them. As above if they are already easier to move than the old shocks that will only get worse and that is not what you want.
Extract from Monroe web site:-
Gas-charged shock absorbers solve many of today's vehicle ride control problems by adding a low pressure charge of nitrogen gas to the damper. The gas serves several important functions; however, the primary function of gas charging is to minimize aeration of the hydraulic fluid. The pressure of the nitrogen gas compresses air bubbles in the hydraulic fluid which reduces the adverse effects of oil foaming. Foam affects performance because it can be compressed - fluid can not. With aeration reduced, the shock is able to react faster and more predictably, allowing for quicker response time and helping to keep the tires firmly in contact with the road surface.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:26 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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With lower (stiffer?) springs and new dampers that are even softer than tired original dampers you are heading for quite a mis-match and the dampers will struggle to control spring re-bound and re-compression. Depending on just how stiff (soft) those new dampers are you might be about to make a pogo stick of your front suspension.
You may not get the body roll you previously had but you could end up continuing to bounce after hitting a bump. That can be particularly dangerous if that bump is mid-bend. My company car (Ford Focus) currently has really tired dampers and that is really nasty if I hit a bump or dip in the road mid bend when driving quickly.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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