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Forums › Tuning, Modification & Legal › Project Cars › Project sleeper |
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 Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:17 am |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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The throttle bodies had plugs in them before I put the injectors in the holes. So I'll just put the plugs in the manifold now instead. I believe they aren't supposed to be a permanent solution but they've done ok for the last 5 years.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:20 pm |
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Joined: Jan 12, 2014
Posts: 39
Trade Rating: 0
Location: The Netherlands
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Very nice, I missed that in your topic. And isn't visible on the engine bay photo's ofcourse.
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:02 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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Almost finished now. Got part of the hose plumbed into the fuel rail. Next job is to get the car up in the air and remove the front subframe to secure the hose in place through the engine bay and under the car.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:33 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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Sorted underneath now as well. Just ordered some P clips to keep everything where it belongs. I want to replace all the standard plastic clips with metal p clips.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:36 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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Got my stainless P clips fitted now. I removed the standard plastic clips and used the holes to fit some rivet nuts. The plastic clips might have been ok but I didn't know if they would soften when they got warm. There's only one I can't get to because it's on the bulkhead and there isn't enough space to get any tools in.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:10 pm |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 5574
Trade Rating: +11
Location: UK
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loving the updates - this is one thread that keeps me coming back to this forum 
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:47 am |
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Joined: Nov 07, 2010
Posts: 32
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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Just went through all the 71 pages...Oh my god, you do not have any luck, sir!
In my opinion and experience, such a steep torque graph comes when the engines is "overcamed" in therms of other components, or the cam timing is f****d up. You have stock pistons, right? Stock compression is 10.8:1, and with piston valve cutouts it is even less, I could even suspect without measuring, but would say around 10.5:1 or less, that is if the head chambers haven't been worked on. For these piper cams to work properly, I would say minimum 11:1, 12:1 preffered for a good low down torque. This is one of the problems I see in this build.
The other one is that longmans airbox with only 60mm feed of air and standard airbox before that. That thing is choking the poor thing! The proximity of bell mouths to airbox wall is also a little to close for a good feed.
Converting to a mesh filter from ITG was the best thing you did, but should f*** up the AFR quite a bit, so a remap is a must if you don't want something to melt.
And another observation. You said that the bodies are actually 45mm, but you fitted 42mm air horns. That is not good for air flow. Not at all. 45mm bodies might be ok for 2l engines (if you listen to jenvey), but if you want a really good midrange, you need bigger. If you look at this engine:
racecarsdirect.com/lis...4_bhp.html
It has 52mm jenvey bodies. Why would you need that big bodies if jenvey themselves say you don't need to? Intake length is also an important factor, but I wont go into that as it is quite a big topic. Just google 2nd and 3rd order harmonics and you would find a glimpse of it.
The EW head inlet ports are not 50mm long, but around 80-90mm. Can measure the exact length if anybody wants.
Just my thoughts about the whole build.
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:34 am |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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You are talking as if the 42mm air horns will be strangling the engine of air. They will flow a lot more air than this engine will consume.
You talk about mid range needing bigger bodies but if the engine isn't restricted at max revs it's not going to be restricted at medium revs. Smaller bodies are better for throttle response anyway. This is a road car after all.
I've made the inlet as long as possible. The only change possible now is to go shorter and I have that option.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:38 am |
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Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 2596
Trade Rating: +17
Location: North West Wales
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The big question now... Is it going to go beyond the end of your driveway this year at all?
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:46 am |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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Hmmm...possibly...needs insurance, tax, mot and a set of tyres....I'm just not sure I will get much chance to use it. I really want a decent hose making for the power steering too. I don't like the one with compression fitting so I'm going to see if I can get somebody to swage the existing metal pipe.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:33 am |
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Joined: Nov 07, 2010
Posts: 32
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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| Edward wrote: |
| You are talking as if the 42mm air horns will be strangling the engine of air. They will flow a lot more air than this engine will consume. |
Not entirely true. They are ok for around 200hp peak, but mid range torque can suffer. In your case it is not ok because the difference in diameter is changing from one size to another and then back again. There is a lot of turbulence because of that, and turbulence is never a good thing for flow.
| Edward wrote: |
| You talk about mid range needing bigger bodies but if the engine isn't restricted at max revs it's not going to be restricted at medium revs. Smaller bodies are better for throttle response anyway. This is a road car after all. |
Also not true. I can show you a dyno graph of breathing mods (bigger runners, same length) bumping the mid range quite a bit.
Yes, smaller bodies are easier to control, but you are far from that point with size.
| Edward wrote: |
| I've made the inlet as long as possible. The only change possible now is to go shorter and I have that option. |
I just want to help you out as by the looks of it the engine performance looks to be nothing but poor for the specs.
A lot of people think that exhaust or inlet size is not that important. Another example for you:
We changed a muffler on a customers car, because he wanted the exhaust to be quiet as a mouse. Before the entire exhaust was 70mm, from manifold to the end. Then we made it taper to 57mm like the stock muffler, everything else stayed 70mm. Here is the difference:
drive.google.com/file/...sp=sharing
That thing killed the mid range torque, but the top end the difference is minimal...
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:02 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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But you don't know how the engine performs as it's never been run with the current spec.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:28 am |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 2505
Trade Rating: +19
Location: West mids
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I had the injectors in my TB's from the start mate. was told by most engine tuners this is the best place to put them for maximum air mixture. I plugged the manifold holes with the standard plugs that came with the manifold from jennvey.
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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:59 am |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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They will certainly be better in that position for high rev power but at low revs it's not for no reason that injectors tend to be positioned pointing at the valves.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:45 am |
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Joined: Nov 07, 2010
Posts: 32
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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That stock position is more like sub 3000 rpm, over that, the higher position is better in most cases.
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