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Forums › Tuning, Modification & Legal › Project Cars › Project sleeper |
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 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:38 pm |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 7093
Trade Rating: +11
Location: Suffolk
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Im just saying one thing, at least you lot can bloody use your cars! Ive still got a few months work before i can hear my screamer pipe again! 
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| Team Impossible Possible
The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke
Forged 1.6 Turbo
Click to see more
144Bhp @ 7PSi - 193.9Bhp @ 13psi
206 Gti Race Car
Click to see more
For all Race/Track Preparation, Feel Free to PM Me!
Whether its for a custom ratio gearbox or track-day alignment, I can help! | |
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:29 pm |
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Joined: Jun 20, 2012
Posts: 1171
Trade Rating: +1
Location: West Country
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Ok, just finished the whole 75 pages as bedtime reading, wow!  Best 206 glamour illustrated magazine article ever  
Sadly the roaring youtube vids have been privatised by Edward :< www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn5on0ExmO4 www.youtube.com/watch?v=uysMC4nnbv4
I quoted you speaking highly about Omex support to a mate, who slates them for being the opposite. I think his story about Omex being arrogant and insisting the fault was the wiring (to an auto electrician!) was just a one-off, unless they've replaced their call line staff over past 5 years..!
As I read, Edward's TODO list kind-of stuck in my head, and I see that remap is still due, car can't be back on the road just yet!!! (being sarcastic, but shouldn't give myself out, so that Edward doesn't keep on teasing us for what we've been waiting for soo long )
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:53 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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Car can be driven perfectly well with the current map I'd just prefer to give it a tidy up to account for the new intake length etc.
Won't have time to get it sorted for a few weeks yet...
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:41 pm |
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Joined: Jun 20, 2012
Posts: 1171
Trade Rating: +1
Location: West Country
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:53 am |
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Joined: Nov 03, 2015
Posts: 11
Trade Rating: 0
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Ive read the majority of this post and the build is awesome. I'm just curious, what made you spend so much time and money on a 138 engine and not just start with an engine swap?surelyyou would have gained much more from doing the mods on a 180? you managed to gain 60+ bhp but only really 20+ over the 180. Is it down to one having a better engine over the other or just purely a labour of love for your car??
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:51 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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But in tuning a 138 engine you go further than that of the 180 engine. All the the things that make the 180 more powerful than the 138 are binned.
The 180 engine is after all a tuned 138 engine.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:15 am |
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Joined: Nov 07, 2010
Posts: 32
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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Not entirely true. It is more difficult to make 138 with good power and wide torque spread. You can do that with an almost stock 180 easy. We've made a little over 200hp with almost stock engine, with usable torque band from 2000rpm to 7500rpm. Just catcams 804 cams and exhaust, on DTA S60. This year we have taken it a little further with VVT delete cams and solid lifters, custom exhaust manifold and ported stock intake manifold - 235hp. Powerband from 4500-8500.
With throttle bodies I think we can get in the region of 250hp, with even better torque spread.
The main difference is in the head, which is a different casting than that of 138. The valves are 2mm bigger and ports are huge compared to 138 ports. The tappets are also bigger, which means you can have more aggressive cam profiles. All in all it is more racing oriented engine than the 138 engine.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:31 am |
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Joined: Nov 03, 2015
Posts: 11
Trade Rating: 0
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So in theory you could fit a 180 head onto a 138 and gain 40 odd bhp with all standard engine parts? Don't think I'm tryingto take anything away from the build, as I've said the work and effort gone in is awesome. 4/5k just seams a lot, and I personally don't have that kind of money to spend, I do however have an off the road 180 so if it's just a case of a head swap and maybe a re-map and a few other mods I could probably gain 20bhp andbe close to the same amount of power output as yours has for around £1000. Or am I being nieve?
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:12 am |
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Joined: Nov 07, 2010
Posts: 32
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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| Lateral_Soup wrote: |
| So in theory you could fit a 180 head onto a 138 and gain 40 odd bhp with all standard engine parts? Don't think I'm tryingto take anything away from the build, as I've said the work and effort gone in is awesome. 4/5k just seams a lot, and I personally don't have that kind of money to spend, I do however have an off the road 180 so if it's just a case of a head swap and maybe a re-map and a few other mods I could probably gain 20bhp andbe close to the same amount of power output as yours has for around £1000. Or am I being nieve? |
Not Exactly like that. The 180 engine has VVT, which 138 doesn't. That is a problem as 138 ECU can't control it.
I wouldn't advise this kind of mods, except if a standalone ECU is fitted.
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:24 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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But mine has a Longman head which will be better than the 180 head. For the road there is no point in fitting longer duration cams than I have fitted. The only advantage that the 180 would offer me is the higher compression and stronger bottom end.
The 180 does have bigger valves but with that comes VVT which makes life more difficult with choosing cams and to take full advantage you need a more expensive ECU which has variable cam timing control rather than the 'on/off ' control that the Omex 600 has.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:56 pm |
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Joined: Nov 03, 2015
Posts: 11
Trade Rating: 0
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| drmo wrote: |
| Lateral_Soup wrote: |
| So in theory you could fit a 180 head onto a 138 and gain 40 odd bhp with all standard engine parts? Don't think I'm tryingto take anything away from the build, as I've said the work and effort gone in is awesome. 4/5k just seams a lot, and I personally don't have that kind of money to spend, I do however have an off the road 180 so if it's just a case of a head swap and maybe a re-map and a few other mods I could probably gain 20bhp andbe close to the same amount of power output as yours has for around £1000. Or am I being nieve? |
Not Exactly like that. The 180 engine has VVT, which 138 doesn't. That is a problem as 138 ECU can't control it.
I wouldn't advise this kind of mods, except if a standalone ECU is fitted. |
Ah okay. Well I've only got the 180 for the interior and wheels really I was just wondering if it would be as simple as that. I'm happy with the power I've got with the engine standard if anything I'll probably just get a remap and possibly replace the paper air filter for a performance washable type and focus more on how it looks and handles 
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:01 pm |
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Joined: Nov 03, 2015
Posts: 11
Trade Rating: 0
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| Edward wrote: |
But mine has a Longman head which will be better than the 180 head. For the road there is no point in fitting longer duration cams than I have fitted. The only advantage that the 180 would offer me is the higher compression and stronger bottom end.
The 180 does have bigger valves but with that comes VVT which makes life more difficult with choosing cams and to take full advantage you need a more expensive ECU which has variable cam timing control rather than the 'on/off ' control that the Omex 600 has. |
ok well yea that makes sense, I'm pretty good with cars but I'm quite new to the newer peugot engines. Cheers for the advice guys, looks like I've got a fair bit of reading to get through lol 
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:03 pm |
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Joined: Nov 03, 2015
Posts: 11
Trade Rating: 0
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| Edward wrote: |
But mine has a Longman head which will be better than the 180 head. For the road there is no point in fitting longer duration cams than I have fitted. The only advantage that the 180 would offer me is the higher compression and stronger bottom end.
The 180 does have bigger valves but with that comes VVT which makes life more difficult with choosing cams and to take full advantage you need a more expensive ECU which has variable cam timing control rather than the 'on/off ' control that the Omex 600 has. |
ok well yea that makes sense, I'm pretty good with cars but I'm quite new to the newer peugot engines. Cheers for the advice guys, looks like I've got a fair bit of reading to get through lol
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:51 pm |
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Joined: Nov 07, 2010
Posts: 32
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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What makes you think that the longman head is better than the 180 head? Just asking about some evidence, or is it just because it is "Longman's"?
About vvt cams. No need in fitting vvt cams if you don't want to. You can fit those piper cams that you have in yours and still make better figures. We have fitted the bigest piper cams, and it still has decent powerband, which will get even better with itb's.
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Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:55 am |
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Joined: Nov 06, 2015
Posts: 66
Trade Rating: 0
Location: West Sussex
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Out of 3 180's I've been involved with the best output I ever had on a dyno from them when standard was 171bhp! The worst one only hit 165bhp! After messing about with cams, inlets and exhausts on a 138 I'm easily reaching 165bhp and a much more usable torque curve.
Its all down to opinion and taste but I would of thought Longman would of done the research as they built many competition engines for Peugeot and were very sucessful.
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