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Forums › The Car › 206 Problems › Possible Electrical/ECU/Wiring problem? |
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 Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 11:16 am |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2024
Posts: 8
Trade Rating: 0
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Hopefully I can get some help as I’m having a complete nightmare with my 2006 206 1.4 Look.
Up until now, it’s been a great runner, that is until it got a misfire and the engine light came on. My mechanic run a diagnostic check, showed a misfire on two cylinders and an issue with the throttle (I can’t remember his exact words), he tried a few things, but couldn’t get to the bottom of it.
On my way home, it was running like a bag of spanners, so I called the RAC out. They run a diagnostic check, similar fault, they towed me home and recommended changing the Ignition Coil and Spark Plugs. I fitted a new Ignition Coil and Spark Plugs and now the car won’t even start, starter motor turns over, but its like there’s no spark.
Next move, I called out an auto electrician, he did a visual check of the wiring, he said it looks in good condition, went to do a diagnostic check with a Snap On unit, no communication with the ECU, very strange so he said that’s your fault, the ECU is knackered. I sent it off to get a clone unit, although I told them there was no comms, they said they’d check first before making a clone, they got back to me and said, we can communicate with your ECU no problem, you don’t need a clone, we’ll send it back and asked me if the auto electrician knew what he was doing.
So now I’ve got conflicting advice, but to the auto electrician’s credit, he came out to again the other day for no charge and tried a different diagnostic checker, this time a Texa, exactly the same, no communication with the ECU, but said he can communicate with the ABS (if that makes sense to anyone that knows these things!).
Over the next couple of hours he was unplugging, testing the voltage and checking the wiring of various modules (CanBus), but still couldn’t get to the bottom of it, it’s like complete mystery.
So my question, has anyone had a similar issue to this, or has any ideas what is going on or where to look? The auto electrician is also trying to source a decent wiring diagram that includes the ECU CanBus (I think that’s what he said?), I have a Haynes manual and Texa also sent him a diagram, unfortunately both don’t cover what he needs, so does anyone have, or know where we can get wiring diagrams?
Apologies for the long post as like you can imagine, I’ve gone down a few paths to get to this point, and I’m now at the stage, is it worth continuing or cutting my loses, the sad thing is, aside form this issue, she's been a good runner, she's in good nick and only on 65K miles.
Thanks in advance
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:57 am |
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Joined: Jun 20, 2012
Posts: 1171
Trade Rating: +1
Location: West Country
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Let's get the basics out of the way: if your BSI module (interior fusebox) reports no comms with ECU, then naturally the immobiliser is also out of whack, and the car won't start.
To simply test that, put your key in the ignition position, then open the door.
If you get few bleeps, means your immobiliser is working, and BSI can communicate with ECU (via a pair of twisted wires, the CAN bus; airbag is also part of that comms circuit).
If all above works, try to place the old ignition coil back just rule out anything untoward.
Otherwise, your best bet is someone with PP2000 (Peugeot Planet), where it can show various states of BSI correctly authorised with the engine ECU.
I had a misfortune of the CAN bus cables crackled their wire within, and sometimes the car would start, but after a slightest disturbing of wires near the BSI fusebox, it would no longer start again.
Good luck and keep us posted!
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:05 pm |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2024
Posts: 8
Trade Rating: 0
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Thanks for the reply Sim.
I've opened the door with the key in the ignition and it bleeps, so I guess that means the immobiliser is OK and the BSI (Built-In Systems Interface?) is communicating with ECU.
Funny you mention the twisted wires as the auto electrician couldn't see where they went from the CAN bus, which is why he's on the hunt for a wiring diagram.
Re: putting the old ignition coil back in, yes, I did that the other day and still the same, starter motor turns over, but the engine doesn't start. When the RAC picked me up, they could run the diagnostics fine, once I fotted a new ignition coil on their recommendation, the car wouldn't start and and the diagnostics can't communicate, so you'd think its related to that in some way?
I'll mention the PP2000 to the auto electrician, I'm thinking though its something he won't have as he's not mentioned it. I had a quick look on eBay though and there's a couple of sellers offering them, its a dilemma whether to chuck a £100+ at one and whether it'll shed any further light on to the problem if it won't communicate?
Thanks again for the reply and I'll keep you all posted.
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:45 pm |
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Joined: Jun 20, 2012
Posts: 1171
Trade Rating: +1
Location: West Country
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Haynes manual wiring diagram was more than enough for me to see which colour connector the CAN bus twisted pair comes out of the BSI, through airbag, and into the ECU, and which pin number is which wire, including the numbers printed on the cables themselves.
Ok, so BSI (yes, Built-in Systems Interface) can talk to ECU, next we check the trifecta for petrols: fuel, spark, and compression.
If you could spray a slight mist of brake cleaner into your air intake and ask someone to crank the car, does it try to start? If yes, means you have sparks, but no fuel from injectors.
If no sparks, then check what brand are your new spark plugs? Bosch is strongly preferred to NGK for your TU type engines (as mentioned here - www.206info.co.uk/Foru...tml#657310 - and in many other endless debates around this forum:)
If everything still shows no signs of life, means we might have no compression.
It's rare for the head-gasket to blow through on all four cylinders, so it should fire on at least some of them whilst cranking. Is there any evidence of oil/coolant/exhaust mixing?
- White or blue smoke from exhaust when the car was still running
- Milkshake residue under oil cap
- Bubbling/boiling and/or oily fouling in the coolant's expansion tank
- Now that the engine is a non-starter, the only way to be sure is via compression test
PP2000 would give you a full and unambiguous listing of faults, still curious what throttle related code you had there, but don't splurge your money on the kit just yet. A decent Snap-on should find 'em correct errors too.
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:18 pm |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2024
Posts: 8
Trade Rating: 0
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Thanks for the reply and good to know the Haynes manual was enough for you, so I'll mention that to him.
I don't have any brake cleaner, can something else be used as an alternative that I might have in my house?
I fitted Bosch FR7DC + plugs, I actually took out FR6 plugs, I used FR7 as it said the recommended gap is 0.9mm and that's what the FR7's apparently are.
I've checked the oil, and it's not a head gasket issue as there's no milky residue and the coolant looks pretty good, I dipped it as well, just to make sure, and there's no oil or fouling in it.
Thanks again for your help and I'll keep you posted
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:24 pm |
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Joined: Jun 19, 2010
Posts: 1600
Trade Rating: +4
Location: South Bucks
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Can you refit the old coil pack?
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| Down to just the 1.4 HDi. Cayman Green 2.0i CC sold. | |
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:23 pm |
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Joined: Jun 20, 2012
Posts: 1171
Trade Rating: +1
Location: West Country
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Hey gazza, they already tried to refit the old coilpack, but no cigar..
More basic checks to try are, in order:
- Check all fuses
- No household sprayable items would safely jumpstart an engine through its air intake. The official name on the tin is "Bradex Easy Start spray", available in Halfrauds, but if you go there, might then buy the brake cleaner instead, read on as to why:)
- Your new Bosch FR7DC+ spark plugs are certainly a perfect fit for your engine (1.4 TU3 family), but out of curiosity, what is the exact flavour of 1.4 that you have? The engine code is written in your VIN: the 6th, 7th, and 8th characters
- This also brings the need to inspect the old/new spark plugs for oily deposits: once I "flooded" the engine due to no spark situation, and constant cranking rendered the spark plugs ineffective, coated in fuel, even when I got the power to the plugs back, so a double whammy here
- And thus you might want to refit your old spark plugs (this is due to the fact your car worked with them albeit misfiring, to rule out any last offender) but give any plugs a clean with brake cleaner before refitting
- Watch out not to fry your starter during frequent prolonged cranks
- Reading the forum many mention that ECU is very peculiar about spark plugs, coil packs, misfire detection, and consequently disabled injectors. Perhaps a clearing of codes would reset the confused state of the ECU?
- Lastly, check your battery voltage, although not crucial for petrols
Even if you see no evidence of headgasket failure, you would also get low compression if your timing was out.
Your cam-belt may have jumped a tooth or otherwise thrown the timing a bit off, this would also explain a sudden misfire that you started experiencing.
So if all of the above steps fail, a compression test is what I'd do next.
Regarding wiring diagram: Haynes is a bit tricky showing the BSI<->ECU CAN bus wiring: it is only drawn in the "Typical preheating system (Diesel)" diagram #2, from a 40-pin black connector in the BSI, pins 2 and 4, into the 32-pin black connector in the ECU, pins C4 and A3, wire numbers 9000 and 9001 respectfully. I hope it's the same on a petrol.
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 1:36 pm |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2024
Posts: 8
Trade Rating: 0
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Sorry for not replying earlier as my 206 still isn't running.
The auto electrician lost interest and left things in a bit of a mess, I was put onto another local mechanic by a neighbour, he came to look, wasn't sure of the issue but said he'd get it to his garage to carry on a more thorough inspection. After chasing and chasing and being fobbed off, it never happened and to be honest, I started to lose interest and thought, I'm going to have to scrap it, something I don't want to do.
A week or so ago, a family friend told me about the BSI reset, something I wasn't aware of, after putting the battery on charge as it was now as flat as a pancake, it, unfortunately, didn't work, but they also told me to look at the iCarsoft CP V1.0 Diagnostic Tool, has anyone had any experience of these? You can pick them up for about £100 and you can get a dedicated Peugeot/Citroen model, I'm tempted, but as the auto electrician wasn't getting any communication with the ECU (although the RAC had no problems), I'm in two minds whether to get one. Any thought?
And apologies again for responding to this for a while as like I mentioned, I kinda lost interest in getting fixed.
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:50 pm |
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Joined: Jun 20, 2012
Posts: 1171
Trade Rating: +1
Location: West Country
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Sorry your car hasn't sprung back to life yet.
iCarsoft CP (I believe that stands for Citroen/Peugeot) seems to do what the Peugeot Planet 2000 would in terms of reading codes and clearing them. Here's a video of it: www.youtube.com/watch?v=boBId2qsk8I
It even oddly resembles the same font and colours.
If you decide to buy it and it doesn't communicate with your ECU, then perhaps you could simply return the tool within the 14 days?
iCarsoft FR is dearer (~£160), but can do more features that of a PP2000 (calibrate steering wheel, initialise autoadaptives etc.), which you might not benefit from immediately.
Alternatively, Lexia kit (cable and PP2000 software) is around £50 on eBay, but you'd then need to setup an old Windows XP or 7 laptop (might even be possible to run inside a Virtual Machine, so long as you relay the laptop's USB traffic into it, but it used to be a hit-and-miss with the virtualisation from my experience). However that might not support newer car models, so that limits you from becoming the French wizard on your street:)
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 4:20 pm |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2024
Posts: 8
Trade Rating: 0
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Sorry for my silence as like I said previously, I was losing interest with my car, however, last weekend my step dad came down to have a look, although he's not a trained mechanic, he's tuned, built and raced motorcycles for too many years to mention, including the Isle of Man TT, so he's no mug you could say.
We must have spent 3 hours going over various things, the wiring loom, fuses, we even removed the OBD socket to check all the pins, tracing wires to see if there were any damaged or frayed, nothing, all were in decent nick, which led us back to it being the ECU. I bit the bullet and went back to the place who tested my ECU (who incidentally said it was fine) as they had a back up of the data so I bought a refurbished unit and they transferred the info over.
With a fully charged battery and the refurbed unit fitted, not feeling confident, I went to start her up, to my amazement, she fired up first time so after all this, it turns out it was indeed a dead ECU.
I'm still not over the hill as I've got a simple diagnostic scanner, it brought up two codes: P0221 - Throttle Position Sensor, and P1336 - Crankshaft Position Sensor, now whether these are legit problems, or a fallback from when my ECU was dying, I don't know as I've not driven it anywhere yet, just had it ticking over, but its good to know its starting and I can look into these other issues.
Thanks again for all your help and I'll have a look around on here about the codes and if they're an easy fix.
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2024 11:36 am |
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Joined: Jun 20, 2012
Posts: 1171
Trade Rating: +1
Location: West Country
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Congrats on firing her up!
It's not unheard to fry the ignition part of these ECU circuits by fitting a replacement coil-pack and/or other misfortunes with voltage spikes.
So your ECU might have come up as communicating, but was no longer giving out the spark. Hence why the company said that they could comm with it, but didn't delve deeper..
Do those remaining faults come back after clearing and driving round a bit?
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Posted: Mon May 27, 2024 1:32 pm |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2024
Posts: 8
Trade Rating: 0
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That sounds like it could have happened as it started before I replaced the spark plugs and ignition coil, albeit running badly, then wouldn't start, either way, it's now starting as I think the root of the issue was the ECU breaking down all the long.
I have cleared the faults, the MOT has expired though, so I've not been able to give it a proper run, just a cheeky run down the road to go through the gears and letting it get up to temperature when stationary, and so far, they've not come back on. Let's see what happens when I take it to the garage, hopefully next week, as it still needs its exhaust sorting out before going in for its MOT, I'll let you know how it goes.
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2024 7:21 pm |
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Joined: Jun 19, 2010
Posts: 1600
Trade Rating: +4
Location: South Bucks
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Cheap scanners don't tend to work well on Peugeots ... or Citroens, Renaults ...
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| Down to just the 1.4 HDi. Cayman Green 2.0i CC sold. | |
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Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2024 9:23 am |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2024
Posts: 8
Trade Rating: 0
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Good news, my iccle 206 is now through its MOT and back on the road as I picked her up yesterday. The engine light hasn't come back on, and with the exhaust sorted, she's running great even though I was giving up hope. I've not given her a decent run out yet, only about 10 miles but so far, so good.
And Gazza, I know what you mean as it's only a basic OBD2 scanner, so I never expected any in-depth explanation of issues, once the ECU was sorted though, it scanned with no problem and deleted the faults, which I think were a throwback from the old ECU getting to the end of its working life.
Thanks again for all the help, it's been appreciated.
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