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Forums › The Car › 206 Problems › Crankshaft half shells: Re-torque? [UPDATE 3]


 
 

Crankshaft half shells: Re-torque? [UPDATE 3]
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V9977
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:27 am Up
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A while back I raised a topic about main (half) bearing replacement of the crankshaft.

This is on my 2001, TU3JP with 105000Km on the clock, but with lot's and lot's of 'engine-time' due to slow-traffic in town over here.

The reason I wanted to do this was because the crankshaft pulley is clearly wobbling with associated V-belt tensioner following the deviations as well. The pulley itself is definately not to blame and other behaviour of the engine complies with this. I have also removed the bottom pulley altogether, and the end-cog shows that the crankshaft is not turning true.

By contrast, our other identical 206 (2008, 65000 Km) has impecable turning with less vibration and smoother behaviour overall.

This engine has a lower-crankcase (bearing ladder) whereby the caps & shells are not directly accesible from underneath.
However, the M11 bolts are.

I have currently dropped the sump anyway for cleaning (a lot of grease and dirt accumilated) and oil change etc. I am also replacing the pressure piston and associated spring in the oil-pump since I'm in there.

I will not be replacing the shells as that would require possibly engine removal which I don't think is justified in it's current state. Performance is good and overhaul should be done at a much later date.

However, I have a feeling that re-torquing the bolts might be of great benefit considering the slightness of the issue. (I have the correct values and procedure thanks to Addaz)
I would first lock the V-belt tensioner so there is no upward tension on the crankshaft from that belt at least.
Any other recommendations or thoughts about this??

Also, the sump comes with gasket-glue from the factory which was an absolute nightmare to get-off from both surfaces. I do have a quality Elring oiled-paper gasket which is an aftermarket product, and not available from Peugeot at all. What would be the disadvantage of using this instead of gasket-glue as Peugeot recommend?

Many thanks for your thoughts on all this.

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Last edited by V9977 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:44 pm; edited 6 times in total
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macca1411
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:53 am Up
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I've always used Hylomar blue gasket sealant with paper gaskets. Started doing this because of the BL 'A' series engine that used to leak for fun from the timing chain cover. I did try the red stuff once, but found it would come out of the bottle like water. Plus the blue was available from the parts counter so just got booked on a job sheet.

It would be worth re torquing the bolts just for piece of mind. Wouldn't replacing the shells mean the flywheel would have to come off so you can drop the crankshaft? If the bearing caps are already tight, can't really see much benefit from locking the crank in place.

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V9977
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:58 am Up
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No, locking the V-belt tensioner to take-away upward tension on the crankshaft I meant.

Are you saying use the oiled-paper gasket AND gasket-glue? My aim is to avoid using glue altogether..
Peugeot use only glue and it was very - very nasty to get-off. They do not list a gasket for the sump at all, for the 206 TU3.

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macca1411
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:08 am Up
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I think the sealant might be there because the mating faces may not be perfect enough to just use a gasket. I've found the Hylomar blue comes off fairly easily as it goes jelly like.

If you take away the upward tension on the crankshaft, will you not be tightening the bolts against the weight of the crankshaft. I've always done crankshafts with the engine out and upside down, so in effect gravity was pulling the crankshaft into the crankcase. I'm sure you know what I mean by this. Difficult to explain in writing.

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V9977
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:17 am Up
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I know exactly what you mean, but this is it:

The bearing caps are NOT underneth in this case.

The bolts go through the lower crank case, or bearing ladder, (not threaded there) and they 'pull-it-up' onto the main block.

That's why it would mean taking-off the entire lower piece to actually replace the shells.
And I'm only looking for a slight improvement not a repair as such.

I'm worried about 'pinching' the crankshaft though!




 

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Last edited by V9977 on Sat May 18, 2013 8:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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macca1411
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:52 am Up
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Sounds like a ball ache of a job.

Re-torqueing the bolts may not solve the movement in the crankshaft. It may be the shaft itself that isn't true. The only proper way of telling is engine out and having the crank inspected and measured for trueness. Although if the crank wasn't running true, I'd expect to see an egg shaped oil seal.
Putting more pressure on the bearings may cause them to fail quicker which could mean you do the overhaul sooner than you expect.


Last edited by macca1411 on Fri May 17, 2013 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Addaz
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:57 am Up
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There is nothing I know of in relation to re tightening of the conrod bolts but becareful they are stretch bolts and could snap!

Out of the factory they have the torque value of 37nm with I think a degree of 47, yet my arp bolts only required 40nm?!

The v pulley just slides onto the crank with a simple woodruff key locking it into place. If you do rebuild the bottom end, I would recommend rebuilding the oil pump and replacing the chain. Its not a to hard a job, any questions just ask

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V9977
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:08 am Up
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Yes, I'm taking-off and cleaning the oil pump as there was loads of crap in the sump.
The only spare items available for the pump is the piston and spring (cost 3 EUR) so might as well stick those in.

The aim is not to take-off the lower crank case or anything else (pulley, oil pump chain etc) at all.

Just to re-torque the bolts in the hope of improving things a bit. You're right, they need replacing normally.
So we are talking about an unprecedented bodge of the highest order. Should be fun.

The figures I have are 20Nm then 44 deg. for aluminium block engine.
Here's a nice question: Undo half a turn first and go to stage one (20Nm), or 'snap' them loose by tightening then do stage one in the right order etc.?

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MrBSI
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:28 am Up
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Sump top engine block join = Loctite 518 flange sealant & NO paper gasket.
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V9977
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:23 am Up
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MrBSI wrote:
Sump top engine block join = Loctite 518 flange sealant & NO paper gasket.

I used 574 for the gearbox join and it worked superbly.
I still have a lot left in the bottle but the sump might need activator because it's painted I think.

However why no paper gasket? How come the people at Elring make them for the exact TU3 and I must say it looks preety good quality.

Will the sump get distorted if not tight-enough or is possible leakage the issue?
If the latter, I can always take it off again at a later date and do the sealant-only system?

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macj
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:48 pm Up
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Just use the sealant my friend.... it was designed that way so stick with it Wink
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Addaz
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:07 pm Up
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The sump just hammer to hell till its straight, thats what we do if warranty wont pay for a new. There is no gasket just sealent between the engine block mate.

I will check when I get my computer working again on the stages, if I forget remind me to heck!

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V9977
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:25 pm Up
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Don't think there are stages for the sump, just 8Nm in a spiral order.
Sump is straight and clean.

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kandlbarrett
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:34 pm Up
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It only takes a few thousands of an inch wear for crankshaft bearings to be audibly knocking and oil pressure dropping. If there is no noise from bearing wear or engine oil light on then I do not believe that is the cause of the crankshaft or front pulley run-out. You need to be looking elsewhere.

Think about it - on most cars first crank regrind size to repair worn crankshat is 10 thou. If you can actually see the pulley is out of true it is moving a lot more than that.

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V9977
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:09 pm Up
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kandlbarrett wrote:
It only takes a few thousands of an inch wear for crankshaft bearings to be audibly knocking and oil pressure dropping. If there is no noise from bearing wear or engine oil light on then I do not believe that is the cause of the crankshaft or front pulley run-out. You need to be looking elsewhere.

Think about it - on most cars first crank regrind size to repair worn crankshat is 10 thou. If you can actually see the pulley is out of true it is moving a lot more than that.

There is indeed minute noise consistent with bearing noise that is not from the gearbox or anywhere else. It depends on the situation on how and when it does it and the pulley does not exhibit run-out.
Instead, minute axis error leading to woble probably because of the way the con-rods are pushing the crankshaft.
Therefore thrust-washers between 2&3 should be OK too.

I've always been overly sensitive when it comes to these things but usually come-out the better for it.

I'll be honest to admit I'll be using the Elring oiled-paper gasket and simply keep an eye-out for leaks. (Which I do anyway)

Regarding the cap screws, I have a few things in-mind and I'll report-back (objectively) when the oil-pump parts arrive and I can carry-out the work in around 10 days time.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone and wish me luck. Smile

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