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 Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:09 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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| Lee wrote: |
| Run K-line from ELM direct to ECU |
I have a KKL lead for my Alfa but I don't understand your post.
Diesel or petrol the engine temp should be 90 degrees. Hotter or colder and your oil is not doing it's job! Gauges may read different but the operating temp should be 90.
It is not about diesel or petrol it is actually about your oil protecting the engine.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:22 pm |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 13077
Trade Rating: +65
Location: England
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70 is fine on a diesel. Petrol is about 80
If you don't understand, then don't do it.
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:27 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 10151
Trade Rating: +12
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mine was running really hot then...
around 100 on motorway if i stick to 70mph 
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:21 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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It is not what the indicated temperature is it is what the real oil and water temperature are. Gauges and senders seem to be inaccurate but 90 is the designed operating temperature for both engines.
The water (coolant) is there to maintain your engine oil at it's ideal operating temperature. Ideal and designed operating temperature for engine oil is 212 degrees F. At 212 degrees F your multigrade 0W30, 0W40, 5W30, 5W40, 10w30, 10W40 etc mineral and fully synthetic oils all have a thickness of between 9.3 and 12.4 and the 40 grades may be thinner than the 30s! The engine manufacturers and oil engineers work together on this standard and the effects.
Lower or higher temperatures and the oil doesn't work so well.
Finally, if you doubt the above comments then bear in mind that your thermostat (oil or diesel engine) is designed to start opening at 88 degrees C and regulate water (coolant) temperature around 90 degrees C. If the stat is designed for that why is your gauge reading higher or lower?
Now a question: if your car is running hotter than it should and you couldn't fix the fault will you fill it with an 0W30 or 0W40 oil and why?
Sorry oil and engine design nerd here and I think I have gone off topic.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:58 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Lee: though about your run "K line direct to ECU" and have an idea what you mean. But what software to then send and interpret the replies? Are we heading for terminal commands?
I am not expecting to be spoon fed; just pointed in the right direction.
I'm also reasonably hot on electronics (building my own amplifiers etc) and a bit of a computer nerd still remembering my old DOS commands and programs in basic. So some new stuff to research and learn. It might be my daughter's ECU at risk but it's all my money. Spoilt kids, we love 'em.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:51 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 10151
Trade Rating: +12
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| kandlbarrett wrote: |
It is not what the indicated temperature is it is what the real oil and water temperature are. Gauges and senders seem to be inaccurate but 90 is the designed operating temperature for both engines.
The water (coolant) is there to maintain your engine oil at it's ideal operating temperature. Ideal and designed operating temperature for engine oil is 212 degrees F. At 212 degrees F your multigrade 0W30, 0W40, 5W30, 5W40, 10w30, 10W40 etc mineral and fully synthetic oils all have a thickness of between 9.3 and 12.4 and the 40 grades may be thinner than the 30s! The engine manufacturers and oil engineers work together on this standard and the effects.
Lower or higher temperatures and the oil doesn't work so well.
Finally, if you doubt the above comments then bear in mind that your thermostat (oil or diesel engine) is designed to start opening at 88 degrees C and regulate water (coolant) temperature around 90 degrees C. If the stat is designed for that why is your gauge reading higher or lower?
Now a question: if your car is running hotter than it should and you couldn't fix the fault will you fill it with an 0W30 or 0W40 oil and why?
Sorry oil and engine design nerd here and I think I have gone off topic. |
yes that's right.
but our HDi thermostat open at 83, unlike petrol lump at 89.
our fan kicks in at 80, while petrol's kick in at 90.
fault thermostat is quite common; in fact if bother oil and coolant are low in temperature i am not surprise the thermostat just stuck open.
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:53 am |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Posts: 4266
Trade Rating: +4
Location: Palestine
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Just change the sensor it only cost about 12 GBP,and you can solve the problem,if it's not,then you didn't lose much 
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:10 am |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Seabrook: if what you have said is correct then Peugeot have designed the engine to run outside of the ideal operating range of the oil!
My diesel Focus = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Alfa 159 = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Alfa 156 = 90 on the nose (when the gauge and sender are working correctly!)
My diesel Astra van = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Transit = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Avensis = 90 on the nose.
I can go on as I have a big fleet!
And are you really sure that even on low speed setting the engine cooling fan kicks in before the thermostat opens. What is the point of that?
Also all the vehicles listed above the fan kicks at about 98.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:28 am |
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Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Posts: 6526
Trade Rating: +10
Location: Westhoughton, Lancashire
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You seem to know so much about vehicles because of your
| kandlbarrett wrote: |
| big fleet |
yet you come on here and ask for advice. When you get given the advice, you argue the toss with people who have probably forgotten more about a 206 than you will ever know.
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:27 pm |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 13077
Trade Rating: +65
Location: England
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| kandlbarrett wrote: |
Seabrook: if what you have said is correct then Peugeot have designed the engine to run outside of the ideal operating range of the oil!
My diesel Focus = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Alfa 159 = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Alfa 156 = 90 on the nose (when the gauge and sender are working correctly!)
My diesel Astra van = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Transit = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Avensis = 90 on the nose.
I can go on as I have a big fleet!
And are you really sure that even on low speed setting the engine cooling fan kicks in before the thermostat opens. What is the point of that?
Also all the vehicles listed above the fan kicks at about 98. |
Last time I checked, none of them was a DV or DW engine.
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:33 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 10151
Trade Rating: +12
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| kandlbarrett wrote: |
Seabrook: if what you have said is correct then Peugeot have designed the engine to run outside of the ideal operating range of the oil!
My diesel Focus = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Alfa 159 = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Alfa 156 = 90 on the nose (when the gauge and sender are working correctly!)
My diesel Astra van = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Transit = 90 on the nose.
My diesel Avensis = 90 on the nose.
I can go on as I have a big fleet!
And are you really sure that even on low speed setting the engine cooling fan kicks in before the thermostat opens. What is the point of that?
Also all the vehicles listed above the fan kicks at about 98. |
i am pretty sure about my numbers
the petrol bit might be off but the diesel one has to be right.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:19 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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macca1411: not looking to offend or shout that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes but asking questions for clarity and against a background of both a technical apprenticeship and experience shouldn't be wrong. Maybe I am pedantic (it wouldn't be the first accusation of that and I know I often am) but I struggle to accept "because it is" as an answer; if I have to apologise for that I will and do unreservedly.
Now, for my own clarity back to being pedantic (sorry and said tongue in cheek.) If the engine fuelling is calculated from the same input that is giving the dash reading then it will be running rich. Yes your diesels open at 83 (not all diesels do) and will probably give a target running temp that fluctuates between 78-88 as lag in the thermostat is likely to give those variations.
So for a diesel 1.4 206 with a thermostat opening at 83 why does everyone accept 70 on the gauge when, depending on what input the ECU is using that could be affecting economy and if the stat is opening early it will affect economy.
With petrols lot of people here seem to accept 80 on the gauge when the stat starts to open at 88 so giving a running temp fluctuating between 83 and 93 and again that could be affecting economy.
Clarity on what I mean by fluctuating: the temperature can swing by that amount within seconds. Drive on a dual carriageway at constant speed and the temp on a diesel will settle at say 84/85 degrees. Pull up at a roundabout and it will quickly climb to 88/89 and maybe quite a few degrees higher before the thermostat fully compensates. Pull away and because the stat is now fully open and takes a few seconds to react and the temperature can drop to 78 or lower before the stat has closed and temperature starts to climb again.
Finally, I am a bit sad and I have asked a few of my guys to have a closer look at their temp gauges (they humour me) and it seems that some of the diesels are actually about a needles width below 90. Sorry for the error.
Seabrook: you are correct about thermostat temperatures for these cars. Not sure about fan cut in though as I haven't found data yet. Perhaps diesel engines, due to higher compression ratios and huge torque or due to being turbocharged actual create greater heat in the oil. So the lower coolant temperature is required to keep the oil temperature under control. It would make sense to me but others may know better.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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