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 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:00 pm |
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Joined: Jan 27, 2013
Posts: 12
Trade Rating: 0
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Hi
Peugeot 206 1.6Hdi GTI
OK here's what started happening. When I insert my key and turn the ignition on all power is cut off from the battery; car goes completely dead. This happens when the key hits position three. You can hear the closing of a relay or similar and then current is killed instantly. All current, no perm lives, clock reset etc.
So far it comes back on it's own after 10 minutes.
Alternatively removing the main ignition fuses in then engine compartment seems to do the trick though I've not narrowed down exactly which one does this (could be the 30A number 15 fuse for the coil and heaters etc) as I've also been pulling the multiplugs too.
Any thoughts on a cure?
Thanks in advance.
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:14 pm |
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Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Posts: 6526
Trade Rating: +10
Location: Westhoughton, Lancashire
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What's your battery condition like?
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:19 pm |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 2632
Trade Rating: +6
Location: Rugby,Warwickshire
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How old is the battery? Best to replace it when it is 3yrs
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:48 pm |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 2720
Trade Rating: +6
Location: UK
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+1 on battery.
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:23 pm |
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Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 2596
Trade Rating: +17
Location: North West Wales
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Either the battery, or earth strap from the battery to the gearbox has broken/corroded.
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:40 am |
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Joined: Jan 27, 2013
Posts: 12
Trade Rating: 0
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Cheers guys for the comments. Sadly battery is two months old 13.27V on the meter, strap good, alternator connections look right too. Good connection at battery and I think I've confirmed that removing and replacing the ignition fuse (also serves injector heaters ECU, EMU etc) clears the problem till next time.
Thanks again.
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Last edited by Steve-o on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:21 pm |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 2720
Trade Rating: +6
Location: UK
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Doesn't have one does it? I would get it on the scanner and see of there's anything showing up.
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:23 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Your battery shouldn't be 13.27V. At 27 degrees a fully charged lead acid battery that has been allowed to settle - not been on charge or load for a few hours should be 12.6V but that voltage reduces with battery temperature so I assume it is or was recently on charge when you checked the voltage. Either that or your meter is inaccurate.
Note: a completely knackered battery will still show 12.6V or more shortly after being on charge or while on charge.
Try starting the car with your meter across the battery and see what voltage it drops down to. If it isn't cranking over it should hardly drop at all and certainly stay above 12V. If it is going lower either something is wrong with your battery, your starter motor is jammed, the engine is seized or a cable is shorting but not blowing a fuse. Try it and post your voltage readings here.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:46 pm |
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Joined: Jan 27, 2013
Posts: 12
Trade Rating: 0
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Just a bit of surface charge on battery is all with the reading.
Again car is running fine except this intermittent starting problem nothing siezed etc. It's not the battery guys it's in the guts of the best somewhere.
A short is a good idea too but not sure why it would reset itself and work fine if it were a short. Would expect it to be constant as car is imobile when it happens.
Scanner codes...can't argue there I really should but hoped someone would recognise the problem and save me a few pounds. Often feel scanner codes send you hunting for ghosts having borrowed one in the past.
Cheers again
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:03 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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No such thing as "just a bit of surface charge" when it comes to battery voltage readings - it will give completely false indication as your did.
A short with a good battery (which it seems you have) really should blow a fuse or you would hear the distinctive arching crackle. Maybe even smell ozone.
Have a really good look at the fuse connections for corrosion. Maybe even fit a complete set of new fuses as that is a cheap(ish) option.
I would be trying the key with the voltmeter at several different points to see where the voltage is being lost.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:47 am |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 2949
Trade Rating: +6
Location: Athens, Greece
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| kandlbarrett wrote: |
No such thing as "just a bit of surface charge" when it comes to battery voltage readings - it will give completely false indication as your did.
A short with a good battery (which it seems you have) really should blow a fuse or you would hear the distinctive arching crackle.
Maybe even smell ozone.
Have a really good look at the fuse connections for corrosion. Maybe even fit a complete set of new fuses as that is a cheap(ish) option.
I would be trying the key with the voltmeter at several different points to see where the voltage is being lost. |
I would start running away if that happens.
Also, if you ever see a wire moving on it's own, run away quickly. 
Spot-on regarding battery voltage readings.
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| 1.4i, 2001, 3-door, China Blue
Repair safely - Drive safely | |
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:54 pm |
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Joined: Jan 27, 2013
Posts: 12
Trade Rating: 0
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Solved! Managed to get a good look around today in the dry and chased all my main battery leads.......loose connection at the starter motor! Not a common thing to happen I'd say but seems to have been enought to cause a spike and failure. I'd certainly advise people to check all the main battery connections before thinking of the alarm.
Thanks everyone who replied.
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:47 pm |
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Joined: Jan 27, 2013
Posts: 12
Trade Rating: 0
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Oh nearly forgot...surface charge is a very real thing. A fully charged 12V battery at 6 molar concentration of H2SO4 returns a potential difference of 12.7V. A fully charged battery naturally wants to discharege and produce lead sulphite (PbSO4) on the surface of the lead plates at the anode. (This is all to do with something called the preferential discharge of ions and the tendancy of all molecules and atoms to achieve their lowest possible energy states or enthalpy) Anyway this process is generally called sulfanation. To charge the battery you need to reverse this and force a back reaction and desulfate the battery. At the end of a perfect cycle all the lead sulphite is now removed from the plates and the inherent electrochemical energy of the bettery is 12.7V, however the forcing process leaves it's own potential difference on the plate. It's not part of the inherent electrochemical property of the battery it's like the polish you leave behind on something you clean. That potential difference will be read on a volt meter as a boost to the inhert voltage if you read it too soon after a charging cycle. This charge can't be held (the electrochemical potential is already maxed) so it drains away like a capacitor emptying over time. It drains on an unloaded curcuit in a few hours or you can put a 20A load on for 2-3 minutes to remove it. Normally your car systems take this away nealy as soon as it mounts because there is always some load on the battery somewhere. In my case the battery was effectively disconnected immediatly it charged on the system because of the loose connection.
This is also why a 'dead' battery will sometimes read as good once you charge it and why it fails under load. You read the surface charge, quickly remove it under load then try to pull a current out of heavily sulfanated plates in the battery......and you can't do that, you need nice fresh clean lead to get a reaction.
Sadly I know far, far less about cars than I do about chemistry and often wish it was the other way round. Hope this clears up the surface charge point and why dead batteries lie to you!!
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:29 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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I think I said the same thing in far less words and yes dead batteries are bloody liars until you turn the key or put them on a load.
Not a chemist but as an apprentice (more than 35 years ago) I did an entry in my apprentice log book about battery charge, chemical reactions and voltage readings.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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