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 Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:47 pm |
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Joined: Oct 15, 2013
Posts: 17
Trade Rating: 0
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Hi there,
I am trying to diagnose why a Peugeot 206 gti - 1999 non perplexed will not start.
To test spark I would normally take a plug out, connect it to the HT lead and ground it by connecting a jumper cable to the threads of the spark plug and the other end of the cables to a ground like the engine block.
With this 206 it has a coil on rail system coilpack, and although I had tried the same method, the spark plugs do not 'click' into the coil on rail boots. I got a friend to hold the plug up via the jumper cable insulated handle and apply downward pressure in an attempt to push it into the coilpack which was upside down resting on the engine. I cranked but no spark.
I am not convinced this is an adequate test to rule out no spark with this coil pack, how do you peugeot 206 gti owners do it?
Quick edit with side question: How would I verify or not if the imobiliser is incorrectly stopping the engine to start? Would there be lack of voltage or any other tell tale signs?
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:02 pm |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 7094
Trade Rating: +11
Location: Suffolk
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Have you checked for faults? As normally a coil failure would bring it up a misfire code or something along them lines.
Are you getting an RPM signal in parameters on a scanner?
You can check to see if the immbolisation is working but putting it on a scanner to confirm the ECU is unlocking when the ignition is turned on.
Common faults off the top of my head for non start:
- Crank sensor failed/damaged
- Cam sensor (i think they still run without, but i cannot confirm)
- Coil pack (uncommon to fully stop it starting)
- Key failure
- Bsi water ingress (if it has one)
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:31 pm |
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Joined: Oct 15, 2013
Posts: 17
Trade Rating: 0
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The codes were missfire codes, although there is evidence more is going on than that, possibly something up with the fueling system.
Codes were pulled at pug dealership, my personal obd2 system connects but times out when asking for codes.
Not sure what BSI is?
I have two keys, cranks but doesn't start with either of them.
I am eager to find out how you would test for spark outside of engine as the missfire codes do support the possiblity of the coilpack not working, even though it did initially start with easy start). I need to test for spark.
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:53 am |
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Joined: Jun 19, 2010
Posts: 1600
Trade Rating: +4
Location: South Bucks
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It won't be ODB2 ... it's a peugeot diag system and if 1999 car is best with pp2000 and lexia-3 cables although some more expensive code readers may work ok.
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| Down to just the 1.4 HDi. Cayman Green 2.0i CC sold. | |
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:06 am |
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Joined: Oct 15, 2013
Posts: 17
Trade Rating: 0
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Ok, this seems to be veering off from matters.
My main question is how do I test for spark outside the engine with these coil on rail systems, surely someone on here has had to check for spark at some point?
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:33 am |
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Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Posts: 6526
Trade Rating: +10
Location: Westhoughton, Lancashire
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Is this related to your other two threads?
Might be easier to have them merged into one, then people can see the full back ground to the original problem and what the AA and dealer have already said.
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:52 am |
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Joined: Oct 15, 2013
Posts: 17
Trade Rating: 0
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It is yes but I think a seperate thread would lead to less answering bias. Also would make it easier for anyone else with the same question.
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:15 pm |
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Joined: Jun 19, 2010
Posts: 1600
Trade Rating: +4
Location: South Bucks
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I think in this day and age the issue is resolved by swapping out the coilpack and seeing if that works. If swapped with a known working coilpack you eliminate that part. But you still have not eliminated the feed to the coil pack .. the small connector on the end.
Apart from making up some sort of adaptor to connect the plugs to the coilpack and have them adequately earthed, I don't think you can. Way back we never tested the plug but tested the HT lead to the plug by inserting a clear plastic part that showed the spark inside jumping from the HT lead end to the top of the plug. The plug remained in the engine. (And your friend is brave ... I've felt the kick from an HT lead and it isn't pleasant!)
My comments about ODB2 were not meant to take this off-topic, but meant to show that you may not have a diag system that is capable of connecting to the peugeot ... not all can .. so the fact you can't read anything maybe down to that incompatibility. You've already had the codes read which has suggested a misfire .. so I'd start with the coilpack.
Let's start again ....
1) Has the engine EVER started and run?
2) Did you notice any misfire after running it for any period of time or did it stop suddenly?
3) Do you know if the keys MATCH the car? The immobiliser chip in the key is coded to the BSI unit. If not the immobiliser will not switch off and kill the ability to start the engine ...
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| Down to just the 1.4 HDi. Cayman Green 2.0i CC sold. | |
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:33 pm |
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Joined: Oct 15, 2013
Posts: 17
Trade Rating: 0
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Good points you raised there and after some extensive googling (away from home so didnt read your response) I have come to the conclusion that without buying expensive equipment, testing coil on plug coilpacks is a near impossible task to do effectively.
So I guess I'll be changing the coil pack, but I'll try changing the sparks first. I have read that peugeot coil packs can take out the spark plugs and sometimes the ecu when they fry, I hope that isn't the case.
The keys are original keys, both of them and have worked flawlessly for 9 years.
I would say yes to the missfire, on the 2 or 3 occasions I have driven it in the last 6 months the idle has jumped around and I could hear light pops on occasion from I suspect the exhaust, although power didn't seem to be effected.
One thing to note is that it died when I was driving it, which is a rarity, and I do tend to push cars a bit, high acceleration, I was stonking it up a hill when it cut out.
I purchased a multimeter, and have done a crash course in how to use it. I could use a little guide in how to test for ohms on the coilpack, might that be a way of seeing if it's working? That goes for the crank position sensor too and anything else relating to ignition.
I have also read that coil packs and injectors have a tendency to fail on these cars. I have cranked the engine and listened to the injectors, I can't seem to hear any pulses but then again I've never done this before either. :/
The car Has started, apparently... the RAC guy sprayed easy start into the air intake and apparently it started briefly, I have sinced tried this once I got it home and it did not start. I also tried a bit of fuel in the throttle body, no start either.
So currently the case is still open wide. It seems the more I read about this car the more potential problems it could be.
I bought a cheap compression tester online, I measured compression in the far left cylinder, cylinder 4 I suspect? There was 100% loss, no pressure, the needle didn't even flicker, I will test the rest of the cylinders tomorrow, if there is loss on all cylinders I will send the tester back as I suspect it may be faulty (there are signs it has already been opened and used and was sent back to seller then sold to me as new). I may do some wet tests also, squirt a few drops of oil in cylinder and measure compression as far as I have read?
I checked all the fuses today and they are all ok, no idea about the relay switch type things though.
I would like to check the teeth on the timing belt as one of the belts was sqeaking when starting for a good 6 months before this happened, it would stop after getting warmed up apparently.
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Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:56 am |
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Joined: Jun 19, 2010
Posts: 1600
Trade Rating: +4
Location: South Bucks
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Sudden loss like this isn't likely to be the plugs ... unless the coil pack completely failed ... which would be odd. You might expect one or two plugs to go in which case the engine runs but misfired badly and you are down on power.
Almost sounds like the immobiliser has cut in ... can't explain why.
Or, the cambelt has failed ... which would explain the 100% of compression on the cylinder (let's assume the tester is working). These are interference fit engines so when the belt goes the vales stay in the same place meeting the pistons coming the other way at high speed ... it doesn't take much to bend the valves meaning the compression is done (I know from experience on an Alfa TS engine where the belt failed on starting!) I you were "stonking" up a hill, you may not have heard anything ... like metal on metal? Do you know when the belts were lasted changed? They don't last forever ... 80K miles or 8 years I think ... so yours should have been replaced in 2007 at the latest.
Timing belts don't squeak .. the auxiliary belt can. Other squeaks from that area will be the tensioners and idler wheels. You can try and stop that with a well aimed squirt of lubricant.
I think you are starting to look at stripping a few things starting with the cam belt covers and checking the condition of that. Or take off the top one and get someone to watch while you turn the engine over. It the belt is running fully (mark it with tippex so you can see it rotates the whole way), you should be able to eliminate that catastrophe. If the mark stays put or disappears and comes back ... head off!
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| Down to just the 1.4 HDi. Cayman Green 2.0i CC sold. | |
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Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:08 am |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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Can you hear the fuel pump prime when you switch on the ignition?
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:20 am |
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Joined: Jun 24, 2012
Posts: 305
Trade Rating: +1
Location: nottingham
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if you near notts you can borrow my coil pack
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Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:02 am |
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Joined: Oct 15, 2013
Posts: 17
Trade Rating: 0
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Ok I went out in the middle of the night last night with my trusty multimeter and my not so trusty girlfriend :P.
Here are the stats (bare in mind im using a £2.50 multimeter from eBay so are guidelines really):
Measured 20v scale direct current and grounded to the engine apart from when I tested the battery.
Battery voltage was around 12.25v.
the connector for the coil pack had 3 pins, 1 of which registered 0, 1 registered really low, and the third pin registered with the highest reading read 0.7. I figured this was supposed to be near 12v so didn't do the firing test. I tested this multiple times and tried grounding to the battery instead but same result.
I measured a few other things for reference:
There is a cylindrical device behind and near the coilpack, I think it's the egr, it looks like it is fixed to the back right of the engine, is it right behind the oil breather engine connector. It appears to feed off of the same harness as the coilpack or may provide power to the coilpack harness, this also read around 0.7.
A connector going to the throttle body measured around 12v.
I measured 2 injector connectors, 2 volts seem to be going to these, 2 volts per injector. While I was there I turned off the car and removed the fuel line at the injector rail and placed it in a bucket and then put the key back in and turned to acc to prime the fuel system, it is definitely delivering fuel up to the injector rail as pressurised fuel squirted out.
I'm thinking now that maybe a problem with the feed to that wiring harness or whatever powers the coilpack. Or perhaps the ecu disables the voltage on the ignition until cranked? I'm going to try the same test again while cranking and see if it achieves 12v. I still am unsure of how to definitively tell if the immobiliser is on?
One point to add which may be suggestive is that the harness I talked about that the coilpack feeds from goes down the side of the engine, directly under where the oil breather is (which is broken). This harness is quite caked in oil and so is everything else under there. This is incidentally the same harness that the cylindrical object is powered from, whether its part of the same circuit I don't know but they both have very similar readings.
I do not know if the belts ever been changed, the car has done 78k miles.
I should check the timing belt, it just looks like such a lot of work at the moment. I'm dubious there is 100 compression loss, I can feel compression when I crank the engine if you know what I mean.
Thanks for the offer Omega but I live miles away in Kent.
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Last edited by tekzwob on Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:11 am; edited 2 times in total
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Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:04 am |
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Joined: Oct 15, 2013
Posts: 17
Trade Rating: 0
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Not my engine bay but the green circle is the cylindrical object and the red circled area is where oil spillage is and where the harnesses drop down.
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Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:12 pm |
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Joined: Oct 15, 2013
Posts: 17
Trade Rating: 0
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Today I checked all the fuses again, they were all good. I pulled the relays and had a look at them in the engine fuse box, I tried to open them but couldn't. Not quite sure what to do with them to be honest. Had the car open so thought I'd try my cheap ebay compression tester again, it's made by hilka and cost £14.
It's supposed to have a 18mm and 16mm thread adaptor but the extension tube is actually a 16mm as well so I left off the adaptors and pulled one plug at a time and did the test. I got some odd numbers which were 50, 75, 75, 90 or something like that. I went and googled and found out supposed to do the test with all the plugs pulled and the throttle open in flood mode. So I pulled all the plugs, and I disconnected fuse 26 which is for fuel pump, ignition module, fuel injectors, and something else I cant remember.
Test came out like this:
left cylinder (facing the engine) = 75
next cylinder = 100
next cylinder = 75
right cylinder = around 55/60
I didn't do any wet compression testing as I haven't got any engine oil at the moment.
I cranked for around 6-8 cycles on each cylinder, some of the cylinder were still going up although very slowly but thought if I kept cranking this wouldn't be useful.
In my limited knowledge these seem very low. I have read of cylinder wash affecting these values and this engine has been cranked a crap load of times since it broke down so is a possibility I think. But would this account for such low numbers? I could smell petrol when cranking while doing the tests, and like I mentioned before the oil has a petrol smell to it which I can smell now.
Besides the voiltage problem, these numbers are pretty disturbing as I have seen engines should reach 150 minimum?
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