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Forums › The Car › 206 Problems › 180 shaking & hunting |
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 Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:47 pm |
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Joined: Aug 31, 2012
Posts: 24
Trade Rating: 0
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I've had my pug for over a year now and the engine still has the shakes on idle and while keeping rpm up a bit the needle goes up & down and you can hear it.
It hasn't affected driving too much, mpg is okayish and the car is definetly drivable but damn it I want it sorted, when going heavy on the pedal or just trying to accelerate uphill a bit the exhaust note doesn't sound good, sound like it blows somewhere but it doesn't, sound like the combustion isn't perfect when giving more than just bare minimum gas.
Finally got my PP2000 sorted(worked only partially) and I was able to read the O2 sensor values among other things. There have never been any fault codes.
I found out that on idle the upstream mV goes wildly from 59 to ~700 and downstream from about ~150 to ~600. At 1600 rpm the values jump around even more, upstream lowest was 39 and highest 800 while downstream fluctuated between 98 and ~770. Dropping like once a second and going up again, the revs on the engine drop at the same time as the sensor values drop.
Should I be looking at replacing both of those? Other thing looking at the info I noticed was that ignition timing went up and down a lot too but that's probably because of the rpms, and that on coil 2 the charge-up time was 1.99ms while others were 1.87. I will look at the cold engine info later to see if my intake air temperature reads right, it seemed a bit high.
I've done everything I can mechanically to the engine, testing out a different coil pack, cleaning VVT, new bosch plugs, cleaned butterfly and the other air intake parts including filter etc. Opinions greatly appreciated, I want my pug purring smoothly.
e: Uploaded a vid about those O2 sensors: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcqmd-WSUXM
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Last edited by Maqer on Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:50 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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Is it worse when cold?
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:51 pm |
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Joined: Aug 31, 2012
Posts: 24
Trade Rating: 0
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Actually, it seems to be worse when warm. On crisp winter mornings the engine seems to pull and behave better on low rpms.. until it warms up.
Oh, and another thing. I've occasionally heard this electrical sound from somewhere under the glove box. The ECU is in there right? You can hear it at the 0:29-0:30 mark on the video. Sometimes there are many whizz-clicks and when I was doing the ECU readings I think I heard it more often.
Maybe some contact problems?
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Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:13 am |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 729
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Norfolk
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Id just get it in at the dealers. Saves an elimination process
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Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:29 pm |
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Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage
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Definitely don't take it to the dealer. Take it to an independent garage.
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| 2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible. | |
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Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:20 pm |
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Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 729
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Norfolk
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Who will say we don't have a clue why its doing it and our machine can't read the car, well thats what i always get told.
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Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:42 pm |
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Joined: Aug 31, 2012
Posts: 24
Trade Rating: 0
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Yeah it's been to the dealer and various other shops and all they do is say they can't figure it out and charge for "fault finding".
Are those o2 sensor values supposed to jump up and down like that?
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Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:35 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Yes, O2 values fluctuate constantly but I believe it should be more rapid than you indicate. Do some searching and reading on the net; I am sure you will find the info.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:09 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Also big(ish) changes in ignition timing are to be expected.
I haven't played with that for many years as modern cars are all pre programmed but it isn't unusual to have idle ignition timing between 5 deg and 10 deg BTDC and almost 40 deg before TDC at max rpm.
Note that ignition advance is not just dependant on RPM and that load on the engine also affects ignition advance.
Have a look at the following link and you can see a basic but typical preprogrammed ignition timing table.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ingmap.jpg
Across the top is % engine load and down the side is RPM. The values in the middle are ignition advance in degrees.
The red section "open loop" means that the ECU is programmed to ignore the feedback that the lambda (oxygen) sensors are giving and allow the car to run rich on pre-set values.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:21 pm |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Finally (I do get fed up typing about blowing exhaust) you are wasting your time doing any diagnostic with a blowing exhaust if that leak is ahead of a lambda sensor.
The leak not only lets exhaust gas out but also lets air in. The lambda sensor will see the air as excess oxygen and send an appropriate signal to the ECU. The ECU will add extra fuel to compensate. Your car will now be running excess fuel causing all sorts of problems including high fuel consumption, possibly fouled plugs, down on power and spurious readings from your sensors.
You are wasting time doing any diagnosis if you have an exhaust leak. Get a mate to hold a rag over the outlet pipe while you look for leaks around joints, silencer, cat or any other rusty sections of the pipe including under the bonnet.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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