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Forums › The Car › 206 Problems › Here is My Spark Plug Reading Condition-What do you see? |
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 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:15 am |
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Joined: Feb 15, 2010
Posts: 242
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Egypt
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Hello folks,
This is an update!
I replaced the ECU, and it did fix many symptoms. There is no jerking at cold start now. No loss of power suddenly at acceleration. No engine management light playing (on & off). But in overall, the car performance is not very good. There is a poor performance in terms of both acceleration and top speed. I also replaced those spark plugs that stated int he initial boost with the Peugeot OEM ones. I assumed the ECU was the problem of this incorrect mixture which caused a carbon build up on the plugs.
Any ideas?
Cheers.
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:00 am |
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Joined: Feb 15, 2010
Posts: 242
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Egypt
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After replacing the ECU, it did solve the following:
Occasional cut out issue
Engine jerking
Engine management light coming on while driving
But the problem that I have initially reported in this post which is the fouling issue of plugs didn't solve! I fitted new OEM plugs with the replacement ECU hopefully that a new ECU would solve the problem. But I'm still running rich (I think), car is poorly accelerating specially when getting hot. It is very weak, I feel it! When the car is cold it seems running much better! This is a symptom of incorrect fuel/air mixture and a rich running. The car also starts at the morning very fast! With no hesitation!
My mechanic is suggesting the fuel injectors, but because the 4 plugs are fouled, how come the whole 4 injectors got faulty at once?????!
Any advises from people who have been following this post?
Best regards.
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:03 am |
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Joined: Feb 15, 2010
Posts: 242
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Egypt
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| Oafie wrote: |
could it mean that the injectors have seen better days, could be dribbling a little bit and causing the rich mixture,
no the plugs are not ruined, just give a gentle clean with a wire brush. |
Oafie, if injectors are faulty, why the 4 plugs are fouled? Are the 4 injectors faulty?
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:27 am |
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Joined: Apr 01, 2014
Posts: 668
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Cornwall
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Sounds like you have little compression( piston rings) .
When it gets hot the head expands and you lose even more compression .That why it poor when hot & no power .
Thats my opinion .
Injectors doubt it . Be light on dash and probably a misfire .
Headgasket leak ?
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| If it aint broke dont fix it ! | |
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:42 am |
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Joined: Feb 15, 2010
Posts: 242
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Egypt
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| Project2062014 wrote: |
Sounds like you have little compression( piston rings) .
When it gets hot the head expands and you lose even more compression .That why it poor when hot & no power .
Thats my opinion .
Injectors doubt it . Be light on dash and probably a misfire .
Headgasket leak ? |
Could it be a bad cylinder head?
No. Head Gasked is not leaking. The fouled spark plugs in the initial pictures are a result of either oil burning, or over fueling. I think it is the first one.
When revving to 5,000 RPM (while car is stopped) there is a blue smoke! Could this be worn piston rings?
I'm assuming piston rings too as it leaks oil, but I have started to use a thicker oil combined with an additive which already slowed down the leak.
The car is also very weak in torque. At 2nd gear it only reach 4,000RPM!
Regards.
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:32 pm |
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Joined: Jun 19, 2010
Posts: 1600
Trade Rating: +4
Location: South Bucks
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The pictures look more like over-fuelling (mixture on rich side) to me .. I wouldn't describe them as fouled at all.
How do you know the head gasket isn't leaking? Have you done a "sniff test" on the coolant?
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| Down to just the 1.4 HDi. Cayman Green 2.0i CC sold. | |
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:24 pm |
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Joined: Feb 15, 2010
Posts: 242
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Egypt
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| gazza82 wrote: |
The pictures look more like over-fuelling (mixture on rich side) to me .. I wouldn't describe them as fouled at all.
How do you know the head gasket isn't leaking? Have you done a "sniff test" on the coolant? |
Hello gazza82, thanks for your comment. Any comment actually give me a hope for solving these terrible issues!
Actually, I have checked the head gasket several times with no hope. A blue smoke is not an indication of coolant leakage by the way. A white smoke is.
The smoke I'm seeing is blue, and only appear at very high rev when car is stopped. When I'm moving, it doesn't reach any RPM over 4,000!
There is also another symptom which I discovered today. When taking off the oil filler cap, there is a large air blowing out from the engine, is this normal for 206? I have heard in many cars that this could be an indication either of faulty PCV system or worn engine parts (cylinders, bores, pistons..etc). Where is that PCV system in 206? PCV stands for Pressure Crankcase Ventilation.
Thanks.
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Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:29 am |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Where are the wet and dry compression test results?
Are you sure the temp sensors are working correctly. If the car always thinks it is cold then it will over fuel when it gets hot because the ecu will think the engine is cold.
Have you checked all inlet pipes and breathers thoroughly for leaks and splits?
Have you done a thorough check of the exhaust pipe for leaks?
How have you checked the head gasket? Compression test or sniff test?
If you you have done all above and are certain it is down on power (the plugs aren't that bad) and using excess fuel (despite meeting emissions tests) then you are almost at the point where best advice is rolling road and live data read with PP2000 and assistance from a knowledgeable technician.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:32 am |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Please also post new pics of your plug colours, though the tests above are now more valuable than plug colour.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:05 am |
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Joined: Feb 15, 2010
Posts: 242
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Egypt
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| kandlbarrett wrote: |
Where are the wet and dry compression test results?
Are you sure the temp sensors are working correctly. If the car always thinks it is cold then it will over fuel when it gets hot because the ecu will think the engine is cold.
Have you checked all inlet pipes and breathers thoroughly for leaks and splits?
Have you done a thorough check of the exhaust pipe for leaks?
How have you checked the head gasket? Compression test or sniff test?
If you you have done all above and ar e certain it is down on power (the plugs aren't that bad) and using excess fuel (despite meeting emissions tests) then you are almost at the point where best advice is rolling road and live data read with PP2000 and assistance from a knowledgeable technician. |
The compression test will be performed very soon, and I will update the results.
I have no water leak, and my head gasket is fine.
As I said before in this topic, I have changed the temp sensor, but didn't solve the over fueling issue (I'm still not sure if the deposit on the plugs is a result of over fueling or oil burn). One technician told me it is over fueling, another told me it is burning oil and the engine need re build!
The car is over consuming fuel.
I will try to re post new pics of the spark plugs as soon as I take them off!
What about the air blowing from the oil filler cap? Is this normal in 206? The internal oil leak? The blue smoke at high rev?
The car is 170K mileage by the way. What is the life time of these French engines?
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Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:41 am |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Oil blowing from filler cap is either very badly blocked breather hoses or, probably or more likely head gasket or piston ring failure.
How have you tested the head gasket? You are so sure there isn't a problem but you haven't described how you tested it.
Do you know how to do a wet and dry compression test and what to look for? I think this will prove where your problem is. The compression test is something I told you to do a long time ago in this thread and you have effectively been wasting your and everyone elses time repeating questions yet not doing that simple test.
Have you checked the exhaust for leaks using an assistant to block the tailpipe?
Have you checked all the engine breather hoses to make sure they are not split, leaking or blocked?
I certainly won't be guessing at root cause until you answer each of these questions in detail and I strongly suggest others don't either. If they do continue guessing without these clearly answered I also suggest that you ignore them.
The only thing I am not sure about with this engine is if the breather system is fitted with any type of filter. My dad had an old Vauxhall Vectra and there is a gauze filter in the breather system, that got blocked with hardened oily soot which gave some of the symptoms you have but my money is on loss of compression due to worn rings and or bores.
Do the compression test and stop p**sing about.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:46 am |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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Compression test first suggested Nov 24th. Nearly 8 weeks ago.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:38 pm |
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Joined: Feb 15, 2010
Posts: 242
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Egypt
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Kandlbarrett, are you trying to say that head gaskets can be blown without water being leaked some where? I'm not losing water as I stated before. The gasket was actually changed 6 months ago because of internal leakage which was cured after the replacement. But I still have an overheat issue! The electric man who spent his entire life in Peugeot saying that I have to check the blue temp sender switch.
The only way I know on how to do a compression test is through the spark plugs place by taking them off. I used to work in Peugeot service center as an Engineer, but I left the career long time ago.
I'm trying to state the obvious and the very clear symptoms. An air blowing from the oil filler cap is a bad symptom. But in some cars like Honda VTech it is indeed normal.
There is no filter in the oil breather hose, either I can see no valve.
The oil breather hose is also new, so it shouldn't be blocked. You can simply test it by taking it off from where it was fitted at the engine and see if there is a sufficient air being sucked through the intake air manifold.
I never intended to waste anyone's time, but the car has terrible signs of engine wear.
I was not sure about the spark plugs reading. I got confused by many opinions, some suggesting it is injectors faulty, and others saying oil burn. Lately, I was advised to try an engine flush chemical as it may help if piston rings are stuck by too many carbon deposits. I have also been advised to try a valve cleaner product to clean the combustion chamber from deposits and see if the spark plugs reading are being improved.
If the fault is injectors, will it affect the 4 plugs? If they are the piston rings, will also be the 4 plugs?!
Blue smoke is a strong sign of oil burning too. I'm losing oil anyway, but the car started to do this few years ago, and I'm using 20W-50 motor oil. So what is new?
I have tested the exhaust for leakage at the service center. And I tried to do the same in the morning when the car was cold. The result is no leakage.
We ran a diagnosis check using Peugeot Plant but nothing come out. Ignition timing is OK, MAP reading fine, and Lambada's reading is fluctuating. Never thought of doing it while car is running on road. Might be a good idea though!
I used to have my own DIAG tester, but the cable got damaged so I'm unable to do tests myself. I enjoyed this in the past!
I think I have answered all the questions except the comp test. The problem is that last time I asked the service center (near my home) to do the comp test they told me that they have two devices, one is not working, and the other will do it only for 406 and some other models and I have to go to another center far from my home to do the test.
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:41 am |
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Joined: Aug 04, 2011
Posts: 1343
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Swindon
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If you have worked in a service centre as an engineer go and by a compression tester from any good parts shop and test it yourself.
If you have worked in a service centre you will know head gaskets can fail without making the car loose water - it is not always that catastrophic.
If you worked in a service centre you will know injectors can foul one, two, three or all plugs.
If you worked in a service centre you will know that while pistons and rings normally wear evenly it is not unusual for one or two to suddenly become worse than the others.
If you worked in a service centre I am surprised you had a head gasket changed on a high mileage car without checking the carbon deposits on the valves and cleaning or reseating a required.
You asked what has changed since you first started using oil? The obvious one is that in those two years you have driven more miles and the wear has worsened.
Including spanners and a compression tester you can buy the tools in the UK to do a compression test for £40 or less.
Do the compression test.
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| Morris 1000, Austin 1100, Escort Mk2, Fiat Mirafiori, Alfa 33, Alfa GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV (2x), Alfa 164 3.0 V6, Alfa 164 2.0, Alfa 75 V6, Alfa 156 2.4 (diesel remapped 200bhp), Alfa 147 GTA (3.6 295bhp), Alfa 159 (diesel remapped 245bhp 300ft.lbs @ 2500rpm)
Why isn't my daughter an Alfaholic? | |
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:00 am |
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Joined: Feb 15, 2010
Posts: 242
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Egypt
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Interesting Kandlbarrett!
For your knowledge, a simple failure in the head gasket that didn't cause oil and water to mix or is not severe can be simply fixed with a bottle of head gasket seal product. I have actually tried this many. And it works! Specially for the Peugeot 206.
What you don't know is that there are actually many ways to simply test a blown head gasket rather than doing a compression test. People always through the "compression test" words because this is the only method they know. Without the existence of the head gasket wear symptoms, it is a waste of time to test what is not appearing as a failure! Have you heard about what is called the head gasket Failure Modes?
As for the injectors, I'm still not sure if a fault in one injector can cause the whole 4 plus to be carbonated! It is difficult! Most mechanics would say Lambada because deposits are in the 4 plugs.
Interesting point about the head gasket change and the valves check. Who said that valves or valves seals have not been checked when the gasket was removed???
You are right about the oil and the excess wear that may have occurred during the past years. But I'm still losing the same amount of oil (1 litre every 3K miles) nothing changed!
I have noticed that the exhaust smoke sometimes appear blue, and sometimes appear black! My mechanic is saying that this smoke is a result of over fueling not oil burn, and he wanted to rule out the probability of engine wear issue. It was my thoughts regarding the oil burning issue because it loses oil.
I will perform the compression test as you encouraged me to do so. But this is not going to solve the over fueling issue if exist!
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