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Please! Help with brake system cockup!
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Zash

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:54 pm

Joined: May 05, 2011
Posts: 23
Trade Rating: 0
Location: England

Hi fellas,

*Need help recovering from current situation*

206 cc 2.0 2000. ABS but unknown if ESP.

TL;DR cockups:

1. Drained the brake fluid entirely from the nipples until air started coming out.
2. Put in new fluid and pumped the brakes, bottoming out the pedal.
3. Pedal now bottoms out with virtually no resistance, even though seemingly no air in the lines.
Followed PP2000 bleed procedure, no improvement.
4. Faulty brake valve (hissing, hard brake pedal), and now seemingly destroyed master cylinder from bottoming out the pedal hard while pumping.

Note: I have been told to never bottom out the brake pedal when changing brake fluid/bleeding but PP2000 internal bleed process tells me to?! Isn't this going to cause my master cylinder seals to be damaged (again)?

New parts arriving on Tuesday. I'd appreciate help recovering from this mess.

A general step by step procedure would be extremely helpful!

==========================

Detailed version:

I was getting hard braking pedal and hissing from my brakes, which I now realise is a sure sign that the brake valve needs replacing; but before knowing this, I thought I'd change the brake fluid.

Well, I got my elderly mum to push down the brake peddle as hard as she could about 30 times or so, bottoming it out, to drain the system until empty air started coming out, then filled it back and started the bleed process till the air was all out (presumably).

Lo and behold my brakes have completely failed. The brake pedal is bottoming out without any resistance now, but after a few pumps there is some resistance for 10 seconds or so before dying again.

I did a good amount of reading to discover my stupidity.
1. First not keeping the brake fluid topped up to ensure no air got into the system, and second, bottoming out the brake peddle while pumping the fluid. Apparently, in addition to the brake valve, the master cylinder has now gone too. Replacement valve and master cylinder arriving on Tuesday, as well as a vacuum bleed kit for a proper attempt this time...

I did try to plug in PP2000 to follow the bleed procedure but it is baffling. It actually asks me to press the brake pedal down (without any warning not to push all the way) 10 times! Surely this will destroy my new (second hand) master cylinder seals leading me to my previous position.

Can anyone shed light on whether I even need to do the bleed procedure with PP2000 if using vacuum kit on nipples, knowing that I have previously drained the brakes from the nipples completely, and then put new fluid in - air in the system but I think I have got rid of it. If so, should I bottom out the pedal?

Any recommendations fellas? I'm kinda at a loss here, and don't want to c**k it up a second time.

I would be grateful for a simple step by step instruction list on how to proceed from my current predicament.

This is what I was thinking:
1. Replace the master cylinder and brake valve.
2. Put in brake fluid, dot4.
3. Use vacuum kit on each nipple to suck out all the air.

4. Do not touch the pp2000 bleed process, or press on the pedal at any stage.

And things should work back to normal?(!)


	-- Zash

Last edited by Zash on Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:04 am; edited 9 times in total

MrBSI

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:10 pm

Joined: Nov 27, 2010
Posts: 11520
Trade Rating: +10
Location: What's it to you? ? ?

There is no need to empty the brake system fluid - the correct bleeding procedure will ensure all the old fluid is expelled from the system. I would always use a pressure bleeder as well.


	Toyota C-HR GR Sport 2.0 Hybrid with JBL & Alcantara packs.

Edward

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:25 pm

Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage

Old master cylinder seals knackered by allowing pedal to go to the floor?


	2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible.

Zash

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:26 pm

Joined: May 05, 2011
Posts: 23
Trade Rating: 0
Location: England

Yeah Edward, I think that is indeed the case.

Need help recovering from this situation now Smile

Is there anything special I need to do while installing the master cylinder and valve? Or will a standard vacuum (pressure) bleed procedure WITHOUT PP2000 on all 4 nipples in order sort it once and for all?

Will any air in the ABS system be sucked out using this procedure too?

Anything else I need to watch out for?

I really don't want to risk bottoming out the pedal with PP2000 again so would prefer doing it without PP2000 if it works just as well Smile


	-- Zash

Edward

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:40 am

Joined: Feb 08, 2010
Posts: 7045
Trade Rating: +5
Location: In the garage

You don't need planet Peugeot on a non multiplexed car.


	2001 GTi 138, Bilstein Sprint dampers, H&R springs, 21mm Peugeot Sport torsion bars, 22mm rear ARB, Peugeot Sport Group A wishbones, 283mm discs, Goodridge stainless hoses, Maniflow 304 grade 4-2-1 2.5" manifold and system, 200 cell cat, Richard Longman head, 45mm Jenvey throttle bodies, 9.5mm TB spacers, 90mm air horns, Jenvey throttle linkage, Jenvey fuel rail, Aeromotive and Goodridge fuel fittings and braided hose, ITG sausage filter, Radtec custom radiator, Piper Ultimate Road cams, Piper vernier pulleys, Omex 600 ECU. Saxo electric PAS pump, Vibra Technics engine mounts. Samco coolant hoses, TTV steel flywheel, 4.76 final drive ratio, 307 CC 180 ratios. 2019 BMW 530i. 2017 Mercedes C300 convertible.

Addaz

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:00 am

Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 7093
Trade Rating: +11
Location: Suffolk

It just sounds like you havent bled the system correctly. Pp2000 is for when you bleed the abs block Get a bottle and pipe, with a little bit of fluid in the bottle. Open the nipple and get someone ti pump 20 times on each side (slowly!!) And then on the 20th get the person to hold the pedal down and then you close the nipple


	Team Impossible Possible The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke Forged 1.6 Turbo Click to see more 144Bhp @ 7PSi - 193.9Bhp @ 13psi 206 Gti Race Car Click to see more For all Race/Track Preparation, Feel Free to PM Me! Whether its for a custom ratio gearbox or track-day alignment, I can help!

mattymj

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:43 am

Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 729
Trade Rating: 0
Location: Norfolk

I have used the easy bleed system before. May sell it in halfords. You attach it to a car wheel and it used that pressure.

Zash

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:10 am

Joined: May 05, 2011
Posts: 23
Trade Rating: 0
Location: England

Thanks for the input. Is the ABS on a different brake fluid line from the rest of the system then? I would have thought that once the fluid was drained completely via the nipples, it would have drained the abs block too to some extent, or at least put air bubbles in its pipes, therefore requiring PP2000 to bleed it? Is this not the case?


	-- Zash

MrBSI

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:41 am

Joined: Nov 27, 2010
Posts: 11520
Trade Rating: +10
Location: What's it to you? ? ?

Please take it to a garage OR find a trained mechanic to repair this. The fact your having to ask these questions means your out of your depth, for your own safety & others on the road, let a TRAINED PROFESSIONAL work on your brakes.


	Toyota C-HR GR Sport 2.0 Hybrid with JBL & Alcantara packs.

panther12

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:39 am

Joined: Dec 09, 2014
Posts: 28
Trade Rating: 0

If you're fitting a new MC I don't see any reason not to pump the pedal all the way to floor as the shaft & seals will be new so will slide smoothly. The reason it's recomended not to push pedal all the way is because after many years of only been partly depressed, corrosion etc may have built up around the parts of the mc that have not been depressed past the seals before therefore may now damage the seals. I usually place a block of wood under the pedal to stop it travelling to the floor when bleeding older cars.

I don't know the procedure for the 206 but in general if the abs pump has been allowed to empty then I think it may need diagnostics to activate the pump pistons in order to bleed it. To bleed the brakes I would have just kept the res filled and pump out from each wheel until fresh bubbless fluid appeared.

Zash

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:44 am

Joined: May 05, 2011
Posts: 23
Trade Rating: 0
Location: England

Thank you for the input MrBSI.

While I would love to do just that, the unfortunate fact that the car is not drivable in its current condition combined with the prospect of high costs means that I will be attempting to do it myself first. If I cannot get it fixed then of course, I shall be looking to a professional Smile

Generally, ABS won't need bleeding after standard brake fluid change but if you read the long version of my post above, you will note that I used the PP2000 to activate the ABS pump while there was likely air in the system.

To prevent the ABS failing when most needed, it looks like I'll have to use PP2000 to pump it again, something which I am reluctant to do.

I'll keep you guys posted, and do a short writeup for posterity if and when it works.

Any useful advice would be appreciated. I have a professional engineering background but lack specific experience when it comes to cars Smile

@panther12

Thank you for the insight, it is most helpful. Unfortunately, the master cylinder is second hand so the no-no still applies Sad

I shall certainly be doing the wood block trick. Any idea what the furthest down I can safely go? 50% perhaps?


	-- Zash

panther12

Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:56 am

Joined: Dec 09, 2014
Posts: 28
Trade Rating: 0

Although not peugeot specific but I have read on other forums where people have found it near impossible to bleed out the air after doing a brake overhaul where fluid has been removed from system. The only way they could get the air removed was to disconnect a pipe from the MC and use a vacuum suction to firstly suck fluid into the mc until it is full and bled of air and then proceed with the normal bleeding at the wheels. I did see similar on the car is born TV series where they built a trike with brand new braking system but after using gallons of brake fluid they couldn't get the air out the system until they cracked off the MC and used suction to pull fluid through it.

Zash

Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:45 pm

Joined: May 05, 2011
Posts: 23
Trade Rating: 0
Location: England

panther12 wrote:

Bingo!

I believe this is the culprit. I have put in all the replacement parts and will attempt to use the vacuum pump kit to bleed the MC while mounted, as oppose to bench bleed, as I do not have access to a vise and a workbench.

The MC is tilted upwards so will try to ramp up the rear in an attempt to level it off. This will be interesting without the use of brakes... possible candidate for Darwin award.


	-- Zash

Zash

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:11 am

Joined: May 05, 2011
Posts: 23
Trade Rating: 0
Location: England

Update: Rebuilt the system with a brand new MC, de-aired properly thanks to the post above, which gave decent braking. Took it to a mechanic friend's garage who removed the trapped air with some equipment which no amount of bleeding would get to. Works great now. Pretty chuffed that he thought my MC and Valve DIY was fine. Thanks panther12, couldn't have done it without you mate


	-- Zash

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